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A Christian forum dedicated to the discussion of how a nation based entirely off of biblical principles ought to be like. We believe that Righteousness Exalteth a Nation, and that God's righteous hand is necessary for the blessing of any nation.
 
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Government Paper   Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:42 pm

Greetings,

I wasn't sure where this should go, and I think this is the right place to put the thread topic. Anyway, I am planning on writing a paper in regards to government and how it has over stepped its bounds for my gavel club. I am planning on using what we have talked about here, and also probably end up writing a huge paper on it as well. But for now, what do you think should I put in that is the most important, and then I'll discuss with you guys about what I am planning to say and make sure it is biblical. Anyways, this is what I'm planning on doing and I welcome all "judgements". Very Happy

Also, I'm thinking this could possibly be the start of the book we are planning on writing, almost like an outline, or a few of the chapters could be formed from what we do here. So please, everyone participate and lets make this paper logically, biblically, and persuasively sound. Thanks.

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:39 am

Start with 'Why is this important?' And then move on to the foundational issues like the purpose of government and such. Sounds great!

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:16 am

Thanks Jay. Very Happy

And okay, that sounds good, and then start getting into what the bible has to say and how it relates to government and I do need to make a good point about how this idea is not a theocracy, but a theonomocracy (I believe thats what you guys said. Please correct me if I'm wrong.) and that we RULE with the LAWs of GOD. Otherwise they'll think I'm for a theocracy which I'm not. What about the rest of you guys? Any imput?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:43 am

Peter G. wrote:
Thanks Jay. Very Happy

And okay, that sounds good, and then start getting into what the bible has to say and how it relates to government and I do need to make a good point about how this idea is not a theocracy, but a theonomocracy (I believe thats what you guys said. Please correct me if I'm wrong.) and that we RULE with the LAWs of GOD. Otherwise they'll think I'm for a theocracy which I'm not. What about the rest of you guys? Any imput?

In Christ,
Peter G.

Yes, theonomocracy. Merely a lexicological difference, but a vast one. We are defining that term here. Smile You will have to explain the difference, which will probably consume most of your paper though. Smile

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:06 pm

Yes, that's what I figured. Since people will assume to much. Wink So let me see if I have the main points that we have discussed down so far:

*We rule by God's Laws Established in the Bible rather then through a head person. e.i. A pope. (I believe that is the definition of theocracy)

I don't believe that we have started a thread talking about this yet have we? Maybe we should. What other points do you think I should add?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:06 am

Peter G. wrote:
Yes, that's what I figured. Since people will assume to much. Wink So let me see if I have the main points that we have discussed down so far:

*We rule by God's Laws Established in the Bible rather then through a head person. e.i. A pope. (I believe that is the definition of theocracy)

I don't believe that we have started a thread talking about this yet have we? Maybe we should. What other points do you think I should add?

In Christ,
Peter G.

I will (hopefully) writing an article on theocracy next week for my blog.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:11 am

Just on Theocracy? Or both Theocracy and Theonomocracy and the differences? (Can you let me know when you post it? Thanks.)

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:37 am

Peter G. wrote:
Just on Theocracy? Or both Theocracy and Theonomocracy and the differences? (Can you let me know when you post it? Thanks.)

In Christ,
Peter G.

Just on Theocracy. I have a nine part series coming up on Theonomocracy. Smile Will do.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:50 pm

Okay thanks, but if you could possibly send me the outline or something of the theonomocracy or something so that I can use that? Partly because I'm pretty sure that you won't get it all "published" in time for my speech. Wink

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:53 am

Peter G. wrote:
Okay thanks, but if you could possibly send me the outline or something of the theonomocracy or something so that I can use that? Partly because I'm pretty sure that you won't get it all "published" in time for my speech. Wink

In Christ,
Peter G.

Haha, here is something to go off of (although it isn't complete enough to really help with a speech, and it would probably be better to focus on stuff you have more of).

1) Government has an exclusive list of limited powers (punishing criminals and praising those who do righteousness).

2) Crimes are solely man-to-man (i.e. horizontal), therefore idolatry etc. are not crimes.

3) The law is above government, and cannot be altered by it.

4) The government represents the law, not the people (although they rule by permission of the people).

5) The government has no influence outside of its jurisdiction (i.e. it cannot impede or help the family, the church, education, etc.)

6) The government is limited to the NT covenant: it cannot replicate the theocracy of OT Israel.

7) Governments are free to apply these principles in any way they so choose (wisely and efficiently, or not so), as long as those applications do not usurp or contradict these principles.

8) Governments must rely on Godly leaders and populace to survive (but cannot enforce Godliness).

Each of those is a separate, full Bible study. I am working on writing out and articulating a couple of them (#1 and #6 actually) right now.

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:08 am

Haha, Well, we have most of that on the forum with our discussions, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I'm not going to have a boat load of bible verses to back it up. More just points and the logic behind each. (perhaps a verse for each) That's why I asked for the points. So thanks.

In Christ,
Peter G.

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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Tue May 18, 2010 9:38 pm

Here is what I have written so far for my speech and I really need help (I think my brain blew a fuse...). Since this is a speech, grammer and such isn't of the greatest importance. I am just looking to make sure that my speech flows smoothly and that I carry what we are trying to say. If you think I should add a point or change something please post. I need your comments sooner then later so please post ASAP. Thanks. Well here you go:

Liberty’s Light

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” Edmund Burke. America was based off some fundamentals of life. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” The Declaration of Independence. When we look at how our government is today, we need to keep one thing in mind as Christians, and that is, “what does God say about government in the Bible?” We need to have a Biblical worldview on government, but in order to do that; we must know what God says.

Proverbs 14:34, “Righteousness exalteth a nation; but sin [is] a reproach to any people”. There is actually a forum out there that is dedicated to the discussion of Biblical government, which I am apart of, and I would just to give credit to that forum for helping me concentrate my ideas about government. The name of the forum is Liberty’s Light: Righteousness Exalteth a Nation. If you would like more information about the forum after class please let me know. Now back to business. What is the purpose of government from a Biblical standpoint? Liberty’s Light came up with this definition, “So far we have defined the purpose of government--or civil magistrate--as the sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.” I think this is pretty self-explanatory because the government is supposed to punish crime and then praise those who work righteousness.

What is crime? What falls under crime in this definition? Liberty’s Light definition is, “A crime is a breach of contract with fellow men or a sin against a fellow man, which includes violations of his life, liberty, and property without due process of law.” Now, we must be careful with this because every time that we commit a sin does not mean it’s under the government’s jurisdiction. Lusting in your mind is a sin, but it would not be under the government because there was no deed acted out against another man. Only sins against a fellow man that was acted, not thoughts, that violates either his life, liberty, or property. Therefore, any time that you were to violate someone’s life, liberty, or property, then you are subject under the government.
Now when we take a look at the Declaration, we find the words, “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (property)”. What does this mean biblically? Liberty’s Light final conclusion was, “We have defined liberty as being: Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.” The way we came to this conclusion after a long and tedious debate, is by the reasoning that we all are free to do whatever correct? But Liberty and freedom are two different things; therefore, they cannot be completely the same. Our definition of freedom is, ”We clarified that the definition of freedom is being able to do what you want to do, while liberty is the freedom to do what is right”. Freedom includes the ability to do evil things such as murder, steal, and covet. Liberty however should only include righteous acts because if it should be protected, we cannot include evil in this category because that would not reflect God’s nature. Therefore, we can conclude that Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous.

What about Life and Property? Liberty’s Light defined Life as, “We have concluded that: 1) Life begins at conception. 2) Human life (as separate from animal life) is valuable because God made it so and said it is. 3) Conception is the point of fertilization of the egg by the sperm.” And Property is defined as, “Property is anything we exercise ownership and have exclusive control over; our control working in accordance to our definitions of liberty and crime. This means that our control is limited by other people's liberties. So, we may not abridge another's liberties by our use of our property. Property cannot include mankind.”

(I want to add this, but I'm not sure how and such yet...)

“1. There must be an immutable constitutional law based off of the basic laws of God. This law is applicable in all cultures, times, and governments and cannot be reinterpreted or changed. This law is supreme above all actions of the government and is purposed to protect the people's rights that are within the government's jurisdiction. (Lex Rex- Law is king)

2. These constitutional laws are not subject to the rulings of judges, but rather govern the judges' decisions. The only "laws" that can be made by anyone by any method are what we call case applications: a ruling explaining how the constitution ought to be applied in a certain case. They do not supersede the constitutional law, they augment it, without overstepping its boundaries.”

Well please let me know what you think pronto! Thanks!

In Christ,
Peter G.

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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed May 19, 2010 1:04 am

It is looking good! Here are my suggestions:

1) Rework your logic on the part where you are differentiating between freedom and liberty. It is muddled.

2) To connect the law into the previous sections, explain that for us to preserve and enjoy these liberties and this system of government, certain principles of lawgiving must be firmly in place.

3) At the end, apply these principles that you have just presented to real life situations, to show their applicability.

4) Use more Bible verses. Quote Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:14.

Hope that helps!

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed May 19, 2010 6:46 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
1) Rework your logic on the part where you are differentiating between freedom and liberty. It is muddled.

Your right about my logic there. It doesn't completely make sense. I wouldn't have caught that. Thanks. Very Happy

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
2) To connect the law into the previous sections, explain that for us to preserve and enjoy these liberties and this system of government, certain principles of lawgiving must be firmly in place.

Okay, that sounds right. I'll try and work in what we said about legislation.

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
3) At the end, apply these principles that you have just presented to real life situations, to show their applicability.

This is a good idea, I'm just not sure how much I can do this because I have a time restraint and I want to try and memorize it all by Thursday. So, we will see what happens depending on how long it is.

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
4) Use more Bible verses. Quote Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:14.

I was already considering if I should put these verses in, (especially 1 Peter 2:14 for when I was talking about the purpose of government) But I hope you don't mean all of Romans 13. Wink

Thanks so much for your help!

In Christ,
Peter G.

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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed May 19, 2010 7:15 am

Oh no, not the whole chapter. Haha. Just the third verse:

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed May 19, 2010 8:13 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Oh no, not the whole chapter. Haha. Just the third verse:

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Now I believe that I am supposed to use that verse to point out that the government is supposed to outlaw sin in essense? But I can see how we could pull from this verse that government is to reward good. So how did you mean that I should use it?

In Christ,
Peter G.

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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed May 19, 2010 9:06 am

Peter G. wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Oh no, not the whole chapter. Haha. Just the third verse:

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Now I believe that I am supposed to use that verse to point out that the government is supposed to outlaw sin in essense? But I can see how we could pull from this verse that government is to reward good. So how did you mean that I should use it?

In Christ,
Peter G.

The whole exegesis of that passage is very long (which is one reason why it is taking me so long to write it). But that right there outlines the purpose of government. The key is 'evil works.' When you define that from the context, you get crime. Simple enough.

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Wed May 19, 2010 7:11 pm

Here is my next draft:

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” Edmund Burke. America was based off some fundamentals of life. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” The Declaration of Independence. When we look at how our government is today, we need to keep one thing in mind as Christians, and that is, “what does God say about government in the Bible?” We need to have a Biblical worldview on government, but in order to do that; we must know what God says.

Proverbs 14:34, “Righteousness exalteth a nation; but sin [is] a reproach to any people”. There is actually a forum out there that is dedicated to the discussion of Biblical government, which I am apart of, and I would just like to give credit to that forum for helping me concentrate my ideas about government. The name of the forum is Liberty’s Light: Righteousness Exalteth a Nation. If you would like more information about the forum after class please let me know. Now back to business. What is the purpose of government from a Biblical standpoint? Liberty’s Light came up with this definition, “So far we have defined the purpose of government--or civil magistrate--as the sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.” I think we all agree that the government is supposed to punish crime. That is pretty obvious. But what about praising those who work righteousness? In 1 Peter 2:14 it states, “Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well”. Notice how it said, “or unto governors”. This shows that this verse is pertaining to governors or the government. Then it says, “punishment of evildoers”. That is talking about punishing crime, which I will define later. Then is states, “for the praise of them that do well”. So the government is supposed to punish evil, and then “praise…them that do well”. I think the bible is being pretty clear and agrees with that definition.
What is crime? What falls under crime in this definition? Liberty’s Light definition is, “A crime is a breach of contract with fellow men or a sin against a fellow man, which includes violations of his life, liberty, and property without due process of law.” Now, we must be careful with this because every time that we commit a sin does not mean it’s under the government’s jurisdiction. Take the Ten Commandments in Exodus, those are all crimes. However, lusting in your mind is a sin, but it would not be under the government because there was no deed acted out against another man. Only sins against a fellow man that was acted, not thought, that violates his life, liberty, or property would be under the government because the government cannot have rule over our thoughts. Therefore, any time that you were to violate someone’s life, liberty, or property by an action, and then you are subject under the government.
The Declaration states, “that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (property)”. To get a better understanding of crime we need to know what Life, Liberty, and Property means to know how we can violate it. Lets define what these each mean biblically. Liberty’s Light defined liberty as, “Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.” Notice how we said, “freedom to do what is righteous”. Not “freedom to do whatever”. We made this distinction on purpose. But in order to say how we made that distinction, lets define freedom. Our definition of freedom is, ”We clarified that the definition of freedom is being able to do what you want to do, while liberty is the freedom to do what is right”. Think about it. Freedom means that you can do whatever you want, which includes the ability to do evil things such as murder, steal, and covet. Liberty however should only include righteous acts because if the government should protect Liberty, it must be of holy origin, which means that we cannot include evil in this category because that would not reflect God’s nature. Therefore, we can conclude that Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous.

What about Life and Property? Liberty’s Light defined Life as, “Life begins at conception. Human life (as separate from animal life) is valuable because God made it so and said it is. Conception is the point of fertilization of the egg by the sperm.” Therefore, abortion would one, not be biblical, but also not within the government’s jurisdiction to say that it is legal because then the government would be committing a crime since under this definition of life, they are killing life. Property is defined as, “Property is anything we exercise ownership and have exclusive control over; our control working in accordance to our definitions of liberty and crime. This means that our control is limited by other people's liberties. So, we may not abridge another's liberties by our use of our property. Property cannot include mankind.” An example of property would be once you buy something like a gun, it’s yours, but you can’t use that gun to commit a crime because then the gun was used to harm someone else’s life. But that doesn’t mean that a gun is bad or evil, or that no one should have one. Only that as long as we don’t use that gun to infringe on another’s life, liberty, or property, we should be allowed to have one for our own protection. Besides, a gun is not good or evil; it only does what the person holding the gun makes it do. So if the gun was to take a life because the person decided to shoot the person, that doesn’t make the gun evil, just that the gun was used for an evil deed, which all depends on the person. So if the person were good, then the gun would be used for good. If the person were bad, then the gun would be used for evil. As long as there are more good people then evil, then guns would be used for more good then evil.

So we can see that God has designed the government to only punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness; that anything outside of this is not within the government’s jurisdiction. Health care, utilities, education, and the military are all not within the government’s jurisdiction. There is so much more I could talk about this topic, and if you have any questions PLEASE talk to me after class. I hope I have made myself clear and that everyone perhaps has changed his or her thoughts about how government is supposed to work. Thank you."

(Perhaps we could work on this as an intro or something for our blog or something. But it would need ALOT of work.)

In Christ,
Peter G.

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Last edited by Peter G. on Wed May 19, 2010 8:30 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Made some changes to the speech twice.)
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Thu May 20, 2010 2:08 am

Only problem is that the military as such is part of the role of government: it is included under punishing crime. But a standing army is not. I would just drop out that mention to forgoe having to bloat your speech defending and explaining the point. Smile

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 23
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   Thu May 20, 2010 7:19 am

Yes, you are right. Okay. I'll take it out. (hopefully in time. Wink)

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"The Government will control you if you don't control the Government."
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PostSubject: Re: Government Paper   

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