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 Separation of Church and State

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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Separation of Church and State   Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:35 am

Greetings,

Jay and I have discussed starting a thread on the Separation of Church and State. We decided to start one to define:


  • What is meant by separation of church and state?


  • Should there be any level of separation of church and state?


  • Is separation of these two spheres biblical?


  • Should they ever cross?


  • What is each of these sphere's duty?


  • How does the duty's of each sphere apply to this topic?


  • Final Conclusion on the topic?



In Christ,
Peter G.

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Jordan Wright



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PostSubject: Re: Separation of Church and State   Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:29 pm

  • What is meant by separation of church and state?

    In terms of modern usage, I think it is meant to communicate that "The government shall make no restrictions concerning religion" and that, visa versa, "The church shall not make any judgments or statements regarding government."

    A preposterous set of statements, if I may be so bold.

  • Should there be any level of separation of church and state?

    Only in the sense that the one sees the other as a different sphere with different powers and jurisdictions and does not seek to alter the powers or jurisdictions of the other. So, only separation in the sense that they don't encroach on each others territory, but they may share territory, as well.

  • Is separation of these two spheres biblical?

    As I said above, only in a certain sense.

  • Should they ever cross?

    Not only should they, but they do so naturally:

    It is only natural that statesmen may also be Christian. It is unavoidable, and even to be encouraged. To say that such a person's religious ideas must not cross over into their politics is ridiculous, since some of our Christian doctrine is political in nature.

  • What is each of these sphere's duty?

    The family acts as the foundation. Family is civilization. It is safe to say that humanity could not exist without it.

    The church provides the moral framework of society. It condemns wrong doing and rewards righteous behavior.

    The government punishes crime. It is justice. No more nor less. It may also carry out war, but only as an extension of the concept of criminal prosecution.

  • How does the duty's of each sphere apply to this topic?

    That the government must sometimes allow things the church condemns, that no sphere could exist without the other.

  • Final Conclusion on the topic?


I'm afraid I'll have to withhold that.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Separation of Church and State   Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:40 pm

Jordan,

I am only going to bring up one thing that I (and everyone on the forum) should disagree with. You said that the church is supposed to condem evil and reward righteousness and that the government is supposed to be justice and justice alone. If you go back and look at our conclusion of what is the purpose of government, you will see that government is supposed to reward righteousness and to be justice. Church has a different set of responsiblities.

In Christ,
Peter G.

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Jordan Wright



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PostSubject: Re: Separation of Church and State   Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:43 pm

Peter G. wrote:
Jordan,

I am only going to bring up one thing that I (and everyone on the forum) should disagree with. You said that the church is supposed to condem evil and reward righteousness and that the government is supposed to be justice and justice alone. If you go back and look at our conclusion of what is the purpose of government, you will see that government is supposed to reward righteousness and to be justice. Church has a different set of responsiblities.

In Christ,
Peter G.

I mean the same thing, but in a different way. I was somewhat limited in what terms I could use.

Essentially, I was communicating that the Church contributes morally to society, while the government doesn't actually try to make people moral, it simply prosecutes those who aren't.

I was trying to clarify that because I truly do not like the idea that the government can legislate morality.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Separation of Church and State   Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:51 pm

Jay or Caleb, I think you need to come in and make sure that I'm not getting this all wrong.

Anyways, this isn't legislating morality if its only rewarding righteousness. But it could be legislating morality by being just. WHICH you agreed with. Justice in and of itself requires us to legislate morality because that is how God designed it.

In Christ,
Peter G.

_________________
"The Government will control you if you don't control the Government."


Last edited by Peter G. on Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : misspelling of all (Sometimes I type to fast. ;)))
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Jordan Wright



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PostSubject: Re: Separation of Church and State   Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:07 pm

Peter G. wrote:
Jay or Caleb, I think you need to come in and make sure that I'm not getting this a;; wrong.

Anyways, this isn't legislating morality if its only rewarding righteousness. But it could be legislating morality by being just. WHICH you agreed with. Justice in and of itself requires us to legislate morality because that is how God designed it.

In Christ,
Peter G.

By legislate morality, I meant make people moral. Now, that might happen as a side effect, but it's not the intention. The intention is to be just: justice rewards good and punishes evil. (Within the bounds of crime, of course.)

The church can both punish and reward, but by extremely different measure. No physical force. (Except in extreme situations, but those are situations of human duty, which lie outside the church and firmly in the boundaries of private life.)
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: Separation of Church and State   Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:47 am

I see what Jordan is saying, and I agree with him. It is really hard to get across what he is saying, but he is in agreement. Smile

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Separation of Church and State   Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:36 pm

Ohhhhhhh. Okay, you were kind of vague and at first glance you seemed contradictory. I know what you are saying now and yes you are in agreement. (Next time you should explain what you mean especially if it sounds contradictory)

In Christ,
Peter G.

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