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 The Purpose of Government

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BeccaMc



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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:01 am

That does make sense, but you have to have a good definition of what crime is, or the government will still take too many liberties.
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:48 am

Greetings,

Exactly, that is exactly what I was thinking. And yes, we do have to have a really good definition of crime.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:53 pm

Therefore, what you are saying (just to clarify) is that the purpose of the government is only really to protect the liberties of the people/citizens? And I agree, crime is really anything that goes against the 10 Commandments. Any questions or comments?
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:22 am

Peter,

If I understand your question right, the answer would be no. I believe that with our current definition of crime, it includes crimes by other nations. It would be a judgment call for what degree of crime to get involved in outside of the nation, but things like the Iraqi war on Saddam Hussein would be definitely included. That is my view at least.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:59 am

so anything that invovles citizens of any country that goes against morallity?
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:00 am

I think it would be anything that goes against the citizens of any country that is immoral and that their own governments cannot or will not defend. That would include despots and weak countries being invaded, but not internal crime in other countries. Are we agreed?

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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:23 pm

That sounds right to me, biblically and logically. Do you think that that is included in the current definition, or do you think that we need to clarify it more?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:19 pm

Question: Went through the whole thread and kind of missed the whole 'liberty' thing. Where in Scripture is government set to defend our 'liberty'?
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:05 pm

Von,

That is a good catch. I noticed that as well. Government is not to defend liberty, but to punish crime. In the Definitions Room we have defined crime, and it includes attacks on liberty. So, in essence, punishing the taking of another's liberty would be protecting liberty, but in a limited way. Liberty is also being defined in there. I am probably not making much sense, but feel free to ask more questions. I would suggest checking out the Definitions room.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:56 am

So, we have came up with a final definition have we? well, if we have, then either we need to come up with the long definition, or to move in a new thread. What do you think Jay?
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Jonathan S.
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:04 pm

I just wanted to put the definition that we have so far on this page too. It's easier to find that way.

The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.

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von



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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:56 am

Jonathan S. wrote:
I just wanted to put the definition that we have so far on this page too. It's easier to find that way.

The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.

Well, ummm. Not what I would say.

I would say that 'the purposes of the civil magistrate are to enforce those laws of God which fall in his jurisdiction and to lead the people in the defense of the nation.'
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:23 am

von wrote:
Jonathan S. wrote:
I just wanted to put the definition that we have so far on this page too. It's easier to find that way.

The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.

Well, ummm. Not what I would say.

I would say that 'the purposes of the civil magistrate are to enforce those laws of God which fall in his jurisdiction and to lead the people in the defense of the nation.'

I agree it would be useful to specifically delineate the second part of your amendment in our definition: 'to lead the people in the defense of the nation.'

But I believe that the first part is already in the definition. We are defining crime: delineating what laws of God fall in the civil magistrate's jurisdiction. So to punish crime is to 'enforce those laws of God which fall in his jurisdiction' if we define crime right. That is the goal of defining crime: to define the civil magistrate's jurisdiction. What do y'all think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:31 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
von wrote:
Jonathan S. wrote:
I just wanted to put the definition that we have so far on this page too. It's easier to find that way.

The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.

Well, ummm. Not what I would say.

I would say that 'the purposes of the civil magistrate are to enforce those laws of God which fall in his jurisdiction and to lead the people in the defense of the nation.'

I agree it would be useful to specifically delineate the second part of your amendment in our definition: 'to lead the people in the defense of the nation.'

But I believe that the first part is already in the definition. We are defining crime: delineating what laws of God fall in the civil magistrate's jurisdiction. So to punish crime is to 'enforce those laws of God which fall in his jurisdiction' if we define crime right. That is the goal of defining crime: to define the civil magistrate's jurisdiction. What do y'all think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Not sure if I agree or disagree. If we define 'crime' as; those violations of Gods Law which fall into the realm of the civil magistrates jurisdiction to punish, then what do we call those violations which fall into the father, or employer, or churches authority to punish.

For an individual we can probably use just 'sin'.... altho all violations of Law are sins.
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:58 am

von wrote:
If we define 'crime' as; those violations of Gods Law which fall into the realm of the civil magistrates jurisdiction to punish, then what do we call those violations which fall into the father, or employer, or churches authority to punish.

For an individual we can probably use just 'sin'.... altho all violations of Law are sins.

Exactly. A crime is something that is a sin, and which also falls inside of the civil magistrate's jurisdiction. All violations of God's Law is sin, but not all sins are crimes, as in being inside of the civil magistrate's jurisdiction.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.


Last edited by Sir Emeth Mimetes on Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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von



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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:25 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
von wrote:
If we define 'crime' as; those violations of Gods Law which fall into the realm of the civil magistrates jurisdiction to punish, then what do we call those violations which fall into the father, or employer, or churches authority to punish.

For an individual we can probably use just 'sin'.... altho all violations of Law are sins.

Exactly. A crime is something that is a sin, and which also falls inside of the civil magistrate's jurisdiction. All violations of God's Law is sin, but not all sins are crimes, as in being inside of the civil magistrate's jurisdiction.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Guess you didn't want to answer my question about the other jurisdictions. Is it a 'crime' if we violate church law?
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:31 am

von wrote:
Guess you didn't want to answer my question about the other jurisdictions. Is it a 'crime' if we violate church law?

Von,

Sorry, I didn't notice another question.

If there is a church law that is in the civil magistrate's jurisdiction, then it would be a crime, otherwise, it would just be a sin.

Basically, in the context of our definition for the purpose of government, crime is simply sins whose punishment lies in the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate. We do not want to just say that, though, lest some bull-headed politician down the road decides to define for himself what sins lie in his jurisdiction. See what I mean?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Jonathan S.
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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:32 pm

Conclusion:
So far we have defined the purpose of government--or civil magistrate--as The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.
The objection we had to this definition was the ambiguity of the word "crime," which we are defining in another thread. Another possible objection is the means by which government will carry out its purpose, which will be explained in the rest of this forum.
I vote we move this discussion to the Archive now, if no one has any more to add.

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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:12 am

I vote Aye.

Any others?

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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BeccaMc



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PostSubject: Re: The Purpose of Government   Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:34 pm

Another aye!
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