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 What is crime?

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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:11 am

Greetings,

After much deliberation with the counsel of my father, I have come to the conclusion that the USA constitution had a phrase which best defines crime. "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;" - the fifth amendment. Inside this phrase is included all of what is necessary for defining crime, including contract law, and etc. The new proposed definition of crime is as follows:

Crime is that which deprives another of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

I think that this is quite clear and sufficient, and we didn't even come up with it! What do you guys think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:16 pm

Hello,

Your definition looks great Jay! Whenever you or anyone else tries to define a word like Liberty or Crime, we have to have all of the more fundamental words defined as well. The definition: Crime is that which deprives another of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. is great, however, our definition of Life, Liberty, and Probperty can and most likely is different them most of the worlds. We should for all definitions of words, have a short version, but also a long version that does not have loopholes and no one can argue the definition of one or more words. What do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:43 pm

Great thought! I love depriving people of loopholes in things like this!
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:24 pm

And Becca, (I can call you Becca right? If not, then sorry. Embarassed ) that is what we always need to do. If we are not clear in our mission, our language, our definitions, and our laws, then as in our government, over time it will fall.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:18 am

Greetings,

I agree, so do we want to start whole new threads in the Queue for defining Life and Property, or define them here? I vote for whole new topics, since it is so important and involved.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:00 am

Jay, maybe what you should do is start an area for just defining words, and in that also clear up the disscussion too.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:47 pm

Peter G. wrote:
And Becca, (I can call you Becca right? If not, then sorry. Embarassed ) that is what we always need to do. If we are not clear in our mission, our language, our definitions, and our laws, then as in our government, over time it will fall.

You can call me Becca if you want. Very Happy I get called everything from Rebecca, to Becca, to Becky, to Sri Lanka. (That last one is a long story. Very Happy )

I also think it's a good idea to start separate threads to define words. We could also, if it's possible, start a new "room" like the Discussion room, only we call it something like the "Dictionary room," where we define important words.

Rebecca
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:41 pm

I am afraid there is something missing from your definition. To be a crime something must also fall within the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate.

And so you have somethings that are properly dealt with in the heart of man. They are sins, but they are in no way crimes.

Then you have other things which are in the jurisdiction of the father. A disobedient son, for example, needs to be spanked by the father, not punished by the state.

Then other things fall in the jurisdiction of the church. False doctrine, for example, is grounds for excommunication, but not civil punishment.

Then there are other things that fall within the realm of the civil magistrate.

Thus until you can define the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate you haven't really defined crime.

While you are at it, you might want to look at the proper forms of punishment that the civil magistrate is authorized to use.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:15 am

Von,

That is exactly what we are doing. Smile Our definition of crime is geared to define the limits of government's involvement in sin: as in what sin it can punish. Did you see a discrepancy between our definition of crime and government's jurisdiction?

I intend to start another thread that would focus on dealing with just punishments in the discussion room.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:34 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Von,

That is exactly what we are doing. Smile Our definition of crime is geared to define the limits of government's involvement in sin: as in what sin it can punish. Did you see a discrepancy between our definition of crime and government's jurisdiction?

I intend to start another thread that would focus on dealing with just punishments in the discussion room.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Well, yes I do. In particular it ignores the jurisdiction of the father. You write a crime is::

Quote :
an action which hurts the life, liberty, or property of another without their consent

Obviously, as you all remember, there are plenty of times when violations of liberty and property happen that are outside the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate... ie when they happen within the realm of the family. If, for example, you brother steals your toy (when you were younger, ok) and breaks it... a civil action is not appropriate.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:11 am

Von,

Actually, our current definition of crime is: Crime is that which deprives another of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. You might have missed the second page of discussion. Smile

I do see your point, though: there are yet sins within this definition of crime that are not within the jurisdiction of the State. How do you think we could amend it to exclude things that are in the realm of the father?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:28 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Von,

Actually, our current definition of crime is: Crime is that which deprives another of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. You might have missed the second page of discussion. Smile

I do see your point, though: there are yet sins within this definition of crime that are not within the jurisdiction of the State. How do you think we could amend it to exclude things that are in the realm of the father?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

I am finding this forum a little difficult to navigate around in... different from some others.

I would define crime as:

Quote :
Those actions which fall within the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate and which he is responsible for punishing as determined in the law of God.


This definition then would involve a sub-list of 'things the civil magistrate is responsible for punishing'. But I don't think you can get that list any smaller than the actual text. It seems to me the problem is you are looking for a 'definition' but your work was tending toward producing a top level list.

Where would Blasphemy, or failure to circumsize, fall in your list? And yet they were crimes, if I recall. Where would incest fall? Or Adultery?
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:15 pm

I think we can leave out "Without due process of law." Due process of law cannot change our rights. I would have the definition read:

Crime is anything that deprives another of any God-given right to life, liberty, or property.

Adding "God-given" does two things. It reminds us that we are not making these guidelines up, and it implies that some people do not have the same rights. For instance children, do not have an unlimited right to property or liberty, right? They cannot handle all the rights of an adult because they cannot handle all the responsibilities.

I also have a question. What extent of crime by a government are we required to put up with? God told the Israelites to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and the Romans were some of the worst criminals of all time. But we have a constitution, so are we required to obey our government beyond the boundaries of the Constitution?

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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:16 am

Quote :
Crime is anything that deprives another of any God-given right to life, liberty, or property.

There are several problems with this definition:

1) It ignores jurisdictions. I deprive my children of 'liberty' all the time, but that is well within my jurisdictional role. At the very, very least you have to add 'improperly' and 'where the government has jurisdiction'.

2) Unfortunately the word 'rights' or 'right' does not appear in Scripture in quite this way, nor does the concept. Nowhere in Scripture is the civil magistrate enjoined to protect 'rights, nor authorized to punish violators of them.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:59 am

Greetings,

I think that Von and Jonathan might be right in some of their observations. I think that out definition might be able to be improved by changing it to read:

Crime is anything that unjustly deprives another of any God-given right to life, liberty, or property where the government has jurisdiction.

We might not have to define "unjust": it seems safe to leave that up to the judge or official who deals with the case before him. And government's jurisdiction will have to be carefully defined in its purpose anyway. So we need to get back to that and figure out how to keep the government out of the places where the father and the family deals with things.

Any more thoughts on crime? Smile

I think that we will start a thread in the Queue or in the Bible Study room on the scriptural basis for "rights" and what that means. I will figure out who will start it.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:40 am

Quote :
I think that we will start a thread in the Queue or in the Bible Study room on the scriptural basis for "rights" and what that means. I will figure out who will start it.

Queue away.

Until then I stand by my statement that 'rights' are not a Scriptural concept.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:57 pm

Reading through these posts, crime seems to be very hard to define in a way that is not too vague or too specific. I think it may be too hard to find a definition that covers everything that we have been trying to make it cover. I believe that pornography should be a crime for many reasons; some of which have already been stated. Maybe a working definition could be:

Crime: Breaking the law of the nation or state, resulting in the criminal being tried, convicted, sentenced.

The law can then be defined in the Constitution of our nation in which we can specify certain laws that make pornography and the such illegal. My definition probably needs a lot of work, but I think it may resolve some of the previous issues. Maybe reducing it to: Breaking the law of the nation or state. Or: Breaking the law of the nation. What are you thoughts or suggestions.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:30 am

Caleb,

The main idea of defining crime is to guide us in deciding whether something should be a crime or not. Basically we are asking, what parameters delimit what sins fall under the jurisdiction of the government (civil magistrate)? Some sins are entirely vertical (between you and God) and others are horizontal (against your fellow man). Vertical sins are not in the government's jurisdiction, but there are also some sins that are horizontal that are also not in the government's jurisdiction. Taking a sibling's toy or yelling at him are horizontal sins, but are withing the father's jurisdiction, not the government's. How can we define crime?

I hope that helped to explain your question.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:02 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Caleb,

The main idea of defining crime is to guide us in deciding whether something should be a crime or not. Basically we are asking, what parameters delimit what sins fall under the jurisdiction of the government (civil magistrate)? Some sins are entirely vertical (between you and God) and others are horizontal (against your fellow man). Vertical sins are not in the government's jurisdiction, but there are also some sins that are horizontal that are also not in the government's jurisdiction. Taking a sibling's toy or yelling at him are horizontal sins, but are withing the father's jurisdiction, not the government's. How can we define crime?

I hope that helped to explain your question.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

I see your point. However, I'm still not sure that this can be completely defined in crime as has been done in previous posts. That is why I proposed it's being defined as breaking national law, and letting nation law determine which sins fall under governmental jurisdiction. Perhaps an illustration will explain better. I do not believe that coveting should be a sin punishable by the government. First of all, you can't really catch someone coveting because you can't read people's thoughts. Coveting is wanting something that someone else has so much, that you would rather you had it and they didn't. This is obviously too hard to catch someone committing unless they verbally reveal this.

However, I believe pornography is a sin that falls under governmental jurisdiction. Pornography feeds the sin of lust which Jesus said was adultery. Thus, lust does break one of the Ten Commandments just as much as coveting does. Obviously, in the same way, you cannot really catch someone lusting as, it too, takes place in the mind. Nevertheless, it is nearly impossible to view pornography without lusting. (At least for men.) I have heard of statistics which link pornography to be a major cause of child abuse, rape, and murder. These actions obviously infringe on the victim's liberty as defined in the post on that subject. It is the government's responsibility to protect citizens' liberty. Thus, pornography almost always guarantees lust, breaking a commandment, and is a major cause of other federal crimes. Therefore, I believe, it does fall under government jurisdiction.

I believe the same thing can be argued about gory violence depicted in films and video games. I believe that government has jurisdiction to make such films and "games" illegal. This is because such activities desensitize the viewer, and over time, have been shown to it make murder easier to commit. As a result, murder rates have increased. This is also a technique used in the military and has resulted in soldiers being more willing to take the life of the enemy than previously experienced. But, I digress.

All that to say, both coveting and lust take place in the mind. However, I believe one falls under government jurisdiction and the other does not. This makes defining crime, as has been stated above, difficult. So that is why I submitted the definition that I did. In order to then determine which "crimes" fall under government jurisdiction, I think we would need to define the role of government, and then determine which sins can be linked to that role. Those sins can be made illegal in the law. When that law is broken, crime is committed.

I hope that makes sense. Anyway, its just my thoughts. If you think we can still accomplish the same purpose by defining crime as stated in other posts, go for it.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:39 am

caleb wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Caleb,

The main idea of defining crime is to guide us in deciding whether something should be a crime or not. Basically we are asking, what parameters delimit what sins fall under the jurisdiction of the government (civil magistrate)? Some sins are entirely vertical (between you and God) and others are horizontal (against your fellow man). Vertical sins are not in the government's jurisdiction, but there are also some sins that are horizontal that are also not in the government's jurisdiction. Taking a sibling's toy or yelling at him are horizontal sins, but are withing the father's jurisdiction, not the government's. How can we define crime?

I hope that helped to explain your question.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

I see your point. However, I'm still not sure that this can be completely defined in crime as has been done in previous posts. That is why I proposed it's being defined as breaking national law, and letting nation law determine which sins fall under governmental jurisdiction. Perhaps an illustration will explain better. I do not believe that coveting should be a sin punishable by the government. First of all, you can't really catch someone coveting because you can't read people's thoughts. Coveting is wanting something that someone else has so much, that you would rather you had it and they didn't. This is obviously too hard to catch someone committing unless they verbally reveal this.

However, I believe pornography is a sin that falls under governmental jurisdiction. Pornography feeds the sin of lust which Jesus said was adultery. Thus, lust does break one of the Ten Commandments just as much as coveting does. Obviously, in the same way, you cannot really catch someone lusting as, it too, takes place in the mind. Nevertheless, it is nearly impossible to view pornography without lusting. (At least for men.) I have heard of statistics which link pornography to be a major cause of child abuse, rape, and murder. These actions obviously infringe on the victim's liberty as defined in the post on that subject. It is the government's responsibility to protect citizens' liberty. Thus, pornography almost always guarantees lust, breaking a commandment, and is a major cause of other federal crimes. Therefore, I believe, it does fall under government jurisdiction.

I believe the same thing can be argued about gory violence depicted in films and video games. I believe that government has jurisdiction to make such films and "games" illegal. This is because such activities desensitize the viewer, and over time, have been shown to it make murder easier to commit. As a result, murder rates have increased. This is also a technique used in the military and has resulted in soldiers being more willing to take the life of the enemy than previously experienced. But, I digress.

All that to say, both coveting and lust take place in the mind. However, I believe one falls under government jurisdiction and the other does not. This makes defining crime, as has been stated above, difficult. So that is why I submitted the definition that I did. In order to then determine which "crimes" fall under government jurisdiction, I think we would need to define the role of government, and then determine which sins can be linked to that role. Those sins can be made illegal in the law. When that law is broken, crime is committed.

I hope that makes sense. Anyway, its just my thoughts. If you think we can still accomplish the same purpose by defining crime as stated in other posts, go for it.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Caleb, do you have chapter and verse where these 'crimes' were listed in Gods Law as being punished by the civil magistrate? And what the punishment would be?

Production of pornographic materials would perhaps fall under the 'adultery' or 'fornication' statutes. Prosecution of these would then involve:

1) The arrest of the men and women involved. Any arrest would have to include at least one man and at least one woman to be Biblically correct.

2) Two witnesses to the adultery or fornication. These witnesses would need to confirm, for example, that this man took pictures of this woman while she was undressed, or helped with the pictures, etc. Essentially, that this man committed fornication/adultery with this woman.

3) The penalty for adultery is death by stoning of both the man and woman concerned, with the witnesses to cast the first stone.

4) The penalty for fornication is more complex, involving at the very least the payment of a bride price to the father of the girl.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:11 am

Greetings,

Very good posts, both of you. I agree with Caleb that lust and coveting are not practically punishable by the civil magistrate, and that they are not crimes. I also agree with Von that publishing (an purchasing, I would say) pornography would be a crime punishable by the civil magistrate. Because of this, dressing immodestly (within limits) would also be a crime. That is why I want to start a research committee to figure out how to legislate such behavior. I wanted to finish this thread first, though.

Basically, once lust becomes an action against someone, it becomes a crime. That is obvious to me. Feel free to correct me on that though. Pornography violates every point of our definition of crime so far, if you look at it right. Lust does not. What do you think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:12 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

Very good posts, both of you. I agree with Caleb that lust and coveting are not practically punishable by the civil magistrate, and that they are not crimes. I also agree with Von that publishing (an purchasing, I would say) pornography would be a crime punishable by the civil magistrate. Because of this, dressing immodestly (within limits) would also be a crime. That is why I want to start a research committee to figure out how to legislate such behavior. I wanted to finish this thread first, though.

Basically, once lust becomes an action against someone, it becomes a crime. That is obvious to me. Feel free to correct me on that though. Pornography violates every point of our definition of crime so far, if you look at it right. Lust does not. What do you think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Quote :
Crime is anything that unjustly deprives another of any God-given right to life, liberty, or property where the government has jurisdiction.

I agree that publishing, purchasing, advertising, or displaying pornography are all crimes punishable by the government. I agree too that immodest dress would be a crime. Looking back at your definition of crime as quoted above, I can see where this might work.

In answer to Mr. Van, the verses I would bring up about the pornography would be Matthew 5:21-22 where Jesus defines lust as adultery, and Leviticus 19:20 and 20:10-12 where adultery is shown to be punishable by civil magistrate. This is used in conjunction with the logical train of thought I took in showing how pornography is under government jurisdiction. As far as showing how gratuitously violent films and video games would be punishable under civil magistrate, I will have to do a little research first, as I am pressed for time right now. It would rely more on logic however. I will work at developing both of these issues latter in the Queue perhaps. But, I must be going.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:59 am

caleb wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

Very good posts, both of you. I agree with Caleb that lust and coveting are not practically punishable by the civil magistrate, and that they are not crimes. I also agree with Von that publishing (an purchasing, I would say) pornography would be a crime punishable by the civil magistrate. Because of this, dressing immodestly (within limits) would also be a crime. That is why I want to start a research committee to figure out how to legislate such behavior. I wanted to finish this thread first, though.

Basically, once lust becomes an action against someone, it becomes a crime. That is obvious to me. Feel free to correct me on that though. Pornography violates every point of our definition of crime so far, if you look at it right. Lust does not. What do you think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Quote :
Crime is anything that unjustly deprives another of any God-given right to life, liberty, or property where the government has jurisdiction.

I agree that publishing, purchasing, advertising, or displaying pornography are all crimes punishable by the government. I agree too that immodest dress would be a crime. Looking back at your definition of crime as quoted above, I can see where this might work.

In answer to Mr. Van, the verses I would bring up about the pornography would be Matthew 5:21-22 where Jesus defines lust as adultery, and Leviticus 19:20 and 20:10-12 where adultery is shown to be punishable by civil magistrate. This is used in conjunction with the logical train of thought I took in showing how pornography is under government jurisdiction. As far as showing how gratuitously violent films and video games would be punishable under civil magistrate, I will have to do a little research first, as I am pressed for time right now. It would rely more on logic however. I will work at developing both of these issues latter in the Queue perhaps. But, I must be going.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Well, yes. But perhaps you missed the rest of the law. In order for adultery to be punished, it needs two witnesses, and both parties need to be stoned.

So I guess you could say that if you had two witnesses to the man reading the porn, and two to the woman posing... then you could stone them both.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:04 pm

I'm sorry. Thank you for your clarification. Yes, you would need at least two witnesses for a death sentence. My bad. I'm not sure stoning is the best form of capital punishment today, however, the implied application does follow Scripture correctly. Good job Sir, in using all of Scripture for this application.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:12 pm

Quote :

I'm not sure stoning is the best form of capital punishment today,

And what particular Scripture would you use to validate this change?
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