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 What is crime?

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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:26 pm

Greetings,

I was thinking about having a thread dedicated to discussing the various allowed punishments for various offenses. Stoning would fall into that category. Would either of you like to Queue that thread?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:30 pm

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

I was thinking about having a thread dedicated to discussing the various allowed punishments for various offenses. Stoning would fall into that category. Would either of you like to Queue that thread?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Your really into that whole 'queue' thing Smile

I'm way to spontaneous.
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Jonathan S.
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:19 pm

caleb wrote:

Crime: Breaking the law of the nation or state, resulting in the criminal being tried, convicted, sentenced.
Caleb, I would have to disagree with your definition of crime, because it implies that the government has a right to make laws. It doesn't. Any law that we have has to come directly from our definitions of crime and the role of government. The law was set up by God the day he made the world. Our job and the job of the judicial system is to figure out what it is (as relates to the role of the Civil Magistrate).

So that brings up the question: where does the judicial system come from, and is it even a biblical idea. I guess that that should be included in my "Forms of Government" thread.

As far as video games and movies, and maybe even pornography and fornication/adultery, I am not convinced yet that they are under the government's jurisdiction. I understand that they can lead tohurt, but that is a morality issue, not a crime issue. Violence in movies does not cause real violence any more than guns cause death. It is what people do with them that causes problems. There is no benefit to solely gratuitous violence, but it does not cause anything. It is inanimate. The same may be true of pornography, but it is hard for me to think of it in the same light as video games.

Another consideration is the result of having laws against these things. They result in a black market. Look at prohibition. Look at illegal drugs. Drugs are a motive in a huge percentage of crime. Not because people are stoned, but because of the money involved. The same thing would happen if we legislate any kind of morality. We can make laws like no drunk driving, but the civil government has no ability to enforce nor (I think) any right to make laws about these things.

What do you all think? Morality cannot be legislated, but crime can, and we have to figure out where the line is drawn, since they both come from the word of God.

One last thought, since adultery/fornication is an action "against" someone, it would almost certainly be a crime, but we can't have witnesses for it most of the time by it's very nature. What to do?

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For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power and love and discipline. --2 Tim 1:7
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:21 pm

Quote :
One last thought, since adultery/fornication is an action "against" someone, it would almost certainly be a crime, but we can't have witnesses for it most of the time by it's very nature. What to do?

Adultery is a capital crime, it is a crime that begins within the jurisdiction of the family. there is a specific way of handling adutery when there are no witnesses, Numbers 5, I believe.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:22 pm

Quote :
Morality cannot be legislated,

Oh, sigh. Nothing other than morality can ever be legislated. If we make a law against going 75 in a school zone, it is because we think it dangerous to go 75 in a school zone... and it is evil to endanger other people.
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:14 am

Greetings,

The phrase "morality cannot be legislated" and its similar versions are semantic failures, and are pointless outside of context. Jonathan used it in a context in which it was right, you used it in a context in which it was wrong. Both of you are right. Smile

As an idea, what does everyone think of possibly defining crime as: Crime is anything that deprives another human being of their liberty, property, or life and which is brought to the civil magistrate's jurisdiction by the offended individual or a witness. Any thoughts?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:28 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

The phrase "morality cannot be legislated" and its similar versions are semantic failures, and are pointless outside of context. Jonathan used it in a context in which it was right, you used it in a context in which it was wrong. Both of you are right. Smile

As an idea, what does everyone think of possibly defining crime as: Crime is anything that deprives another human being of their liberty, property, or life and which is brought to the civil magistrate's jurisdiction by the offended individual or a witness. Any thoughts?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

I like the newly updated definition with one change. There must be at least two or three witnesses according to Scripture. (See Deuteronomy 17:6; 19:14.)

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:38 am

caleb wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

The phrase "morality cannot be legislated" and its similar versions are semantic failures, and are pointless outside of context. Jonathan used it in a context in which it was right, you used it in a context in which it was wrong. Both of you are right. Smile

As an idea, what does everyone think of possibly defining crime as: Crime is anything that deprives another human being of their liberty, property, or life and which is brought to the civil magistrate's jurisdiction by the offended individual or a witness. Any thoughts?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

I like the newly updated definition with one change. There must be at least two or three witnesses according to Scripture. (See Deuteronomy 17:6; 19:14.)

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

True, but only to convict, not to bring to trial. An act may be a crime even if nobody sees it at all (God always sees, of course), but nobody may be able to press the charges. See what I mean?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:29 am

Greetings,

The following is the conclusion for the Crime thread. Who is agreed?

  1. Crimes are done, not thought. They are not necessarily acted, as a deliberate or careless refusal to act has the same denotations and consequences as an actual action.

  2. The punishments for crimes are based on the fact that they are towards other people, not towards animals or God. All sins are against God, but the punishment of the government is limited to that part of a sin that is against mankind. This is the principle of restitution, as separate from the principle of guilt towards God. If you sinned against another in the Mosaic Law, you had to pay restitution, and give an offering to God. The one was for the offense to man, the other for the offense to God. Government can only exact the former, the offense to man. Government only deals in restitution in the New Testament.

  3. Crimes are against another person. They are injurious to him in some way. An attempt at an injurious act is also a crime because although it might have been thwarted, it was against the other person. In the Old Testament we see and example of this deduction with the law of false witness. The false witness is not merely punished for the limiting of the accused liberty because of the trial, but for the accusation, what he had intended to do to the accused party. So restitution is required even if the attempt fails, though maybe not always in the full amount.

  4. Crimes are not limited to a person himself, but extends to his properties and liberties. A person has exclusive jurisdiction over his property, and to violate that exclusive right, is to violate himself. This extends to his liberty as well, as is required by logic and indicated by many laws in the Old Testament, including the kidnapping laws. Because of this, we can also add contract law, as that is a necessary extension of both property and liberty. To break a contract is to commit a crime against the other parties.

  5. It is not a crime to punish crime if you are delegated to punish crime. It is the government's responsibility to punish crime, and to do so they must exact punishment, which itself falls into the category of actions that defines a crime. Criminal type actions can only be done by delegated government officials in punishment of proven crime. If a criminal type action is done without due process of law (however that is defined) then that action is a crime and needs to be punished as such.


So from this we may conclude the following definition of crime (keep in mind that government in the New Testament is limited to punishing crime and praising righteousness): a crime is a breach of contract with fellow men or a sin against a fellow man, which includes violations of his life, liberty, and property without due process of law.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:02 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

The following is the conclusion for the Crime thread. Who is agreed?

  1. Crimes are done, not thought. They are not necessarily acted, as a deliberate or careless refusal to act has the same denotations and consequences as an actual action.

  2. The punishments for crimes are based on the fact that they are towards other people, not towards animals or God. All sins are against God, but the punishment of the government is limited to that part of a sin that is against mankind. This is the principle of restitution, as separate from the principle of guilt towards God. If you sinned against another in the Mosaic Law, you had to pay restitution, and give an offering to God. The one was for the offense to man, the other for the offense to God. Government can only exact the former, the offense to man. Government only deals in restitution in the New Testament.

  3. Crimes are against another person. They are injurious to him in some way. An attempt at an injurious act is also a crime because although it might have been thwarted, it was against the other person. In the Old Testament we see and example of this deduction with the law of false witness. The false witness is not merely punished for the limiting of the accused liberty because of the trial, but for the accusation, what he had intended to do to the accused party. So restitution is required even if the attempt fails, though maybe not always in the full amount.

  4. Crimes are not limited to a person himself, but extends to his properties and liberties. A person has exclusive jurisdiction over his property, and to violate that exclusive right, is to violate himself. This extends to his liberty as well, as is required by logic and indicated by many laws in the Old Testament, including the kidnapping laws. Because of this, we can also add contract law, as that is a necessary extension of both property and liberty. To break a contract is to commit a crime against the other parties.

  5. It is not a crime to punish crime if you are delegated to punish crime. It is the government's responsibility to punish crime, and to do so they must exact punishment, which itself falls into the category of actions that defines a crime. Criminal type actions can only be done by delegated government officials in punishment of proven crime. If a criminal type action is done without due process of law (however that is defined) then that action is a crime and needs to be punished as such.


So from this we may conclude the following definition of crime (keep in mind that government in the New Testament is limited to punishing crime and praising righteousness): a crime is a breach of contract with fellow men or a sin against a fellow man, which includes violations of his life, liberty, and property without due process of law.

I would be in general agreement.

Under this definition I would argue that Blasphemy and Idolatry, besides being sins, are crimes against ones fellow man.

As I have mentioned frequently before, the lack of adequate dealing with jurisdictions means that the question of 'punishment' in the final point is problematic; as other jurisdictions have the authority to punish. Under a strict reading of this last point some might assume that a father punishing his child, or an employer his employee, or a master his slave, were illegal because they were done outside of the 'government'.

The 'attempted' issue is still problematic, and hard to support from Scripture.

Other various quibbles.

For some reason I have not been getting updates when a new post is made... thus my recent silence.

Well, that and I have been getting my book website up and running.

sites.google.com/site/vonsscifi
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:04 am

Jay,

I'm in agreement.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:11 am

I am also in agreement with this conclusion, Jay.

Blessings,
Hannah

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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:36 pm

The conclusion sounds good to me.

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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:43 pm

Greetings,

The following is an amended conclusion for the Crime thread. I added a paragraph on the end to point out what we have left to discover and discuss. It is in effect exactly the same as what we already agreed to in the Bible Study. I could have appended "and if it is within the government's jurisdiction" to the definition itself and had a similar effect, but that would have been tantamount to saying "sins are within the government's jurisdiction when they are within the government's jurisdiction." The related future discussions will address Von's concerns.

  1. Crimes are done, not thought. They are not necessarily acted, as a deliberate or careless refusal to act has the same denotations and consequences as an actual action.

  2. The punishments for crimes are based on the fact that they are towards other people, not towards animals or God. All sins are against God, but the punishment of the government is limited to that part of a sin that is against mankind. This is the principle of restitution, as separate from the principle of guilt towards God. If you sinned against another in the Mosaic Law, you had to pay restitution, and give an offering to God. The one was for the offense to man, the other for the offense to God. Government can only exact the former, the offense to man. Government only deals in restitution in the New Testament.

  3. Crimes are against another person. They are injurious to him in some way. An attempt at an injurious act is also a crime because although it might have been thwarted, it was against the other person. In the Old Testament we see and example of this deduction with the law of false witness. The false witness is not merely punished for the limiting of the accused liberty because of the trial, but for the accusation, what he had intended to do to the accused party. So restitution is required even if the attempt fails, though maybe not always in the full amount.

  4. Crimes are not limited to a person himself, but extends to his properties and liberties. A person has exclusive jurisdiction over his property, and to violate that exclusive right, is to violate himself. This extends to his liberty as well, as is required by logic and indicated by many laws in the Old Testament, including the kidnapping laws. Because of this, we can also add contract law, as that is a necessary extension of both property and liberty. To break a contract is to commit a crime against the other parties.

  5. It is not a crime to punish crime if you are delegated to punish crime. It is the government's responsibility to punish crime, and to do so they must exact punishment, which itself falls into the category of actions that defines a crime. Criminal type actions can only be done by delegated government officials in punishment of proven crime. If a criminal type action is done without due process of law (however that is defined) then that action is a crime and needs to be punished as such.


So from this we may conclude the following definition of crime (keep in mind that government in the New Testament is limited to punishing crime and praising righteousness): a crime is a breach of contract with fellow men or a sin against a fellow man, which includes violations of his life, liberty, and property without due process of law.

We will need to continue our studies to determine which crimes must always be in the government's jurisdiction, which ones may be excluded from it by the decision of the offended parties, and which ones are never within it, and etc. We must do this to discover when a criminal type act is truly within the government's jurisdiction, and when it is not.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Hannah Marie
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PostSubject: Re: What is crime?   Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:59 pm

Agreed with amended conclusion.

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If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
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