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 What is liberty?

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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:26 am

Greetings,

That would be a great definition, since it is the Bible's definition. The problem is that it would be very difficult to implement and utilize in the contexts that we need the definition for. It is saying practically the same thing as what we have right now anyways.

So we have as the current draft:

Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.

Right?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:42 am

Quote :
Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.

Cool by me. The second half is really a definitinon of righteous, not liberty. Thus really:

Quote :
Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous.
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:27 am

Greetings,

I see Von's point, and agree with it. The reason I still want to keep the second half in there, though, is that it helps to specify exactly the source of authority for determining individual cases, instead of having to delineate it elsewhere. It helps block loopholes. Smile

Any thoughts?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Dr. HipopĆ³tamo
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:32 pm

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:


So we have as the current draft:

Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.

Right?


I pretty much agree with that definition, but maybe it should say something about the freedom to do what one thinks is best as long as it is righteous? (I'm not exactly sure how to say that, so I'll use examples to clarify). Giving to the poor is righteous, but what if someone would rather use their money to do something else that is righteous? I think most of us agree that the government does not have the right to make us give our money to the poor or decide how much we give to the poor. By our current definition of liberty, though, would it be a violation of liberty to take money from someone and give it to someone else? Here's another scenario: a person illegally downlowds music to avoid buying the CD. I think this is a crime, but it would be hard to show that this violates someone's freedom to do what is righteous. Maybe we could have something in our definition based on 1st Timothy 5:18
"For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

What do you think? Maybe our current definition implies this already, but I would like to clarify it a bit more.

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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:33 am

Dr. H.

I see your problem, and I commend you for thinking carefully. But the difficulty is solved, however, by our usage of the terms property and liberty in our definition of crime.

Stealing is a violation of property and liberty both. So that answers the Mp3 problem.

Government cannot force us to do one righteous thing over another. What the definition of liberty tells us is this: if someone stops someone from being able to do something that is righteous then it is a crime. See what I mean?

I hope that I made myself clear. Feel free to ask more probing questions! Smile

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:57 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Dr. H.

I see your problem, and I commend you for thinking carefully. But the difficulty is solved, however, by our usage of the terms property and liberty in our definition of crime.

Stealing is a violation of property and liberty both. So that answers the Mp3 problem.

Government cannot force us to do one righteous thing over another. What the definition of liberty tells us is this: if someone stops someone from being able to do something that is righteous then it is a crime. See what I mean?

I hope that I made myself clear. Feel free to ask more probing questions! Smile

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Perhaps a brief perusal of this thread:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7371

Will raise some interesting issues, and get at some of what Dr H was trying to address.
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:01 am

Greetings,

Does everyone agree with me that this thread might be ready for a conclusion post?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Hannah Marie
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:04 am

Yes, I agree this thread is ready for a conclusion post.

In Christ,
Hannah

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If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:25 pm

Conclusion:

We have defined liberty as being: Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.

We clarified that the definition of freedom is being able to do what you want to do, while liberty is the freedom to do what is right.

With this definition, impeding someone's liberty is considered a crime and it is not within the government's jurisdiction to choose which righteous things people do.

If all agree, this thread can be moved to the archives.

_________________
If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:44 am

Agreed. Good conclusion post, Hannah!

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:49 pm

Hannah Marie wrote:
Conclusion:

We have defined liberty as being: Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.

We clarified that the definition of freedom is being able to do what you want to do, while liberty is the freedom to do what is right.

With this definition, impeding someone's liberty is considered a crime and it is not within the government's jurisdiction to choose which righteous things people do.

If all agree, this thread can be moved to the archives.


Ummm...

Two things. I am not sure that 'freedom' is Biblically defined in that conclusion post, and lets leave the definition of crime over on that thread. An unjust father or elder can impede someones liberty without that being a crime. As can a husband.
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:16 am

von wrote:
Hannah Marie wrote:
Conclusion:

We have defined liberty as being: Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.

We clarified that the definition of freedom is being able to do what you want to do, while liberty is the freedom to do what is right.

With this definition, impeding someone's liberty is considered a crime and it is not within the government's jurisdiction to choose which righteous things people do.

If all agree, this thread can be moved to the archives.


Ummm...

Two things. I am not sure that 'freedom' is Biblically defined in that conclusion post, and lets leave the definition of crime over on that thread. An unjust father or elder can impede someones liberty without that being a crime. As can a husband.

Von,

We defined 'freedom' that way a while ago because we needed a word that meant that. This definition is localized to the forum, and we are not claiming that it is how it ought to always be defined (which we would be if it was a 'biblical' definition). The real definition of freedom can include our definition.

As to the crime statement. You are right. I think that we can fix it by adding the parenthetical phrase '(when within the civil magistrate's jurisdiction)'.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Conclusion:

We have defined liberty as being: Liberty is the freedom to do what is righteous. And what is righteous is determined by God's law and word.

We clarified that the definition of freedom is being able to do what you want to do, while liberty is the freedom to do what is right.

With this definition, impeding someone's liberty is considered a crime (when within the civil magistrate's jurisdiction) and it is not within the government's jurisdiction to choose which righteous things people do.

If all agree, this thread can be moved to the archives.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Dr. HipopĆ³tamo
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PostSubject: Re: What is liberty?   Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:52 pm

I agree. Smile I would move this to the archives, but it's possible that someone posted on here and the post was accidentally deleted, so I will wait a few days to give them a chance to repost it.

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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6: 12)
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