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 Lazy People

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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Lazy People   Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:11 am

Welfare and Lazy People

People have recently grown lazy, expecting the government to take care of our every whim. However, has the Bible not spoken out against such manner, living, and attitude?

“For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone will not work, neither let him eat. Foe we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work and acting like busybodies.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10-11.

Who should pay for people to live? Should the government who has no jurisdiction to do so? Why should we sit back and try to let the government solve our problems? In a welfare state some work hard, trying to feed their families, but they are unable to because those that act like “busybodies” sap the resources of those whose bodies are actually busy. I believe that we should take a stand against such a life style and society. Government ought not to use social security or any of the other forms modern governments use to “take care of us”. Government should keep out of the economy and business. When government meddles with business regulations it ends up where only the few who are very blessed actually make what they deserve and thus can take care of their families. As we look into history and around us, the more and more we see of this being true.

  • Should the government take care of us?
  • What are some verses that back your views up?
  • How does welfare affect us ultimately?
  • Any connected thoughts?
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TaylorSandbek
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:40 pm

Peter,
I think you have it all wrong my friend... where is your compassion? There are many, many people out on the streets, without food, without a house: should we just let them starve? You have never been in their position, and probably never will be, you don't know how truly bad it is. How can you say that the government shouldn't be allowed to help those in need?
Some say it's the churches, or the individual's place, to do that... obviously there are shortcomings in the church and individual, because there are still hungry and still homeless. are we to leave them that way? If the church and family don't step up, then the next group that should is the government.

We live in this great nation of America, where everyone is happy, wealth abounds... what is fundamentally wrong with giving a TINY bit of that money to people who have nothing? It's our American lust, our insatiable greed.

-Taylor

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Last edited by TaylorSandbek on Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:39 pm

Taylor,

But, who SHOULD take care of the poor? Look it up. The Bible does talk about this. (This way you don't just take my word, but God's word on this issue.) The government should not have to take care of the poor, the CHURCH should. But another thing is, the church isn't doing their part really well either... some churches are, but most aren't... Check the Responsibility of the Government thread. (Or whatever it was called. Embarassed ) we have defined what the purpose of the government is, so anything outside of that is not the Governments responsibility. And I do know about the poor, I do care about the poor, I want to help the poor. But it is not the government’s responsibility. Besides that, how about all of the people who are not poor and benefit from welfare and such? It’s become twisted beyond repair at the moment. So we should just eliminate it to start, and then maybe start it back up, but I doubt it...
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TaylorSandbek
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:10 am

I'd like some verse references, not just the bible says... that is no good at all. Where specifically does the bible state it's out of the government's authority? The bible teaches that we are to take care of the people in need, I think we'd both agree on this?
So why don't we take care of them through government programs? Sure they need some reform, but essentially, they are good! Where else can we have an organization that everyone in the country donates to, where else do we have something that can cover, aptly, all the people who are less advantaged?
In the Constitution, it states the government has right to lay and collect taxes for the general welfare of the people. What better upkeep of the welfare of the people, then giving to the ones who have nothing?

Stop being so stubborn in these empty "values" of economic policy. If this is the best way to do something, then this is the way it should be done, am I not correct?

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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:34 pm

Taylor,
I would have to disagree with you there. The government has no authority that the Bible does not give it. If you can find a passage that says the government is to give its citizens money, I will stand corrected.
I used to have a coworker who said that she would starve if it weren't for government food stamps. She worked twenty hours or so a week for minimum wage and lived with her mom who worked at Starbucks for probably not a whole lot more money. She didn't even have a driver's license because she said it was too much of a pain. That is why she couldn't get a better job. Most of the money my coworker earned went to her tuition at art school in Chicago.
I have another coworker with no college experience at all who has her own apartment, works two jobs, and supports her boyfriend too.
Do either of these people deserve government aid? Is there any reason that the household of two that is not earning enough to live on should get to live just as well as the other household of two?
I believe that in any country, if the government says out of the economy, anyone can make a living if they work hard enough. If they don't work as hard as someone else, they don't deserve to live as well. And for the very few who can't support themselves, private charities can do a lot more than the government does now.

Another important factor is that for the Government to give away money, it must take that money from someone. That means it must have the power to take that money away. The government cannot handle any more power than you can. It is a group of flawed, sinful human beings who will work for their own gain. They will waste more money than they use well, as we see every time the government spends money now.

If you have any more questions, or if you see a problem with my arguement, I would be willing to tell you the rest of my opinion and change it if I'm wrong.

By the way, are you using the devil's advocate posts to say something you don't really mean so that you can make us think better?

In Christ,

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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:12 am

Jonathan S. wrote:
By the way, are you using the devil's advocate posts to say something you don't really mean so that you can make us think better?

Greetings,

Yes, Taylor is utilizing the devil's advocate post format (he forgot the Evil or Very Mad though, Smile ) with my sanction. I think that it is a good time to start using them to help us structure our reasoning better then just "yah, I think so too." Not that any of us have been doing that too much. So take this as an opportunity to logically and biblically think through the whys of your positions, everyone. Smile

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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TaylorSandbek
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:09 am

Ah, I never said it didn't need to have some reform in it, stuff like what you just described cannot be allowed to go on, but there are people out there who where born in poverty, and truly can't come out of it: for no fault of their own. People who, because of disability, cannot work, cannot make money, and have no family that wishes to, or can, support them.
Have you ever been in either of these positions? I think it is unfair for any of us to make judgements on all these people, throwing them all into one group of lazy, because some truly are just underprivileged. I have never been underprivileged, and I never want to be. I can't begin to imagine how bad it would be to live how some of them are forced to live. What is wrong with utilizing the government to keep dying children on the streets alive? Should we just sit and let them starve, go cold...?
Ideally, it is under the churches authority. But no one is stepping up and getting this stuff done! So what now? We have to go with the next best thing - the government.
Don't be afraid of a little bit of wealth distribution. It is good in small doses... When it is being distributed to the people who truly need it, and not just people who are lazy, that is for the good of the country.

Stop being so greedy. Welfare is the only thing that will give some of these children opportunity to live successfully.

Evil or Very Mad Haha forgot the evil smile last time...

-Taylor

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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:33 pm

Taylor and Jonathan,

You are representing opposing sides to a battle that has been fought over ever since history was first written. This problem was never found to have a perfect solution and probley never will simply because of human nature.

  • However, the Bible does speak about two items that I would like to address in both of your arguements. The first is the issue of government or church. First of all, the Church is the Body of Christ. This means that every Christian is a part of the Church and therefore God's commandments apply to Christians. The Bible says that the people are responsible for caring for the poor and the needy. The Bible says that man should not deny his brother's needs. However, it goes even further to say that giving is a matter of the heart. When a person gives, it should be because God is leading their heart to be generous and faithful to Him. Giving shouldn't be out of obligation.

    6: But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
    7: Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
    8: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
    9: (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
    (2 Corinthians 9:6-9)

    If giving is not to be required, than that rules government out of having the title to give to the poor. Government has to take the money away before it can give it back. And when the government takes our money, we are not giving out of love for God, we are giving out of obligation and requirements set by the government.

    There are many other Bible verses that speak of giving to the poor and helping the needy:

    38: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. (Luke 6:38)

    21: Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Luke 6:38)

    17: But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
    18: My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
    (1 John 3:17-18)

    All of this Bible verses support giving out of compassion, like Taylor said. However, compassion and generous giving will not be felt through government. God calls us to serve Him through our actions. By a welfare system based and relied on through the government, we are not serving God as much as we are serving the government.


  • I also think that giving the government free reign or allowance to take care of the poor, we are to some extent excusing the poor from their position. While their position may never be perfect or not enjoyable in our eyes, we must also realize that God is with them just as much as He is with us. God knows of their plight and through His Spirit working in our hearts, He reaches out and helps the poor.

    5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? (James 2:5)

    20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh. (Luke 6:20-21)

    17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the Lord will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. (Is 41:17)

    14 Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth [1] himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless. (Ps. 10:14)


The Church may not always be living up to the standards God has set but they should in no way be exempt from those duties by passing along the torch to the government. The government was not given that task and the Church should be lead to reform and step up to the plate to take on the task that was appointed to them.

And I agree with Taylor on another thing, the poor are not necessaryly lazy. However, this still does not give government right to intervene.

While I don't believe as Jonathan does that the poor should be left to work harder and rise up in society (I apologize ahead of time if I have misunderstood your point), I also don't agree with Taylor that the government should be involved in a full fledged welfare system.

All in all, it is not the government's duty to take care of the people but rather to promote that the people help each other. Taking care of the poor and the general aspects of people's life is a job for the Church and for fellow Christians. Government is there to guide, not to provide solutions in these manners.

In Christ,
Hannah

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Last edited by caleb on Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:59 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Small spelling and punctuation mistakes)
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von



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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:34 pm

Hmmm. And here I thought Taylor was just nuts.

Oh well.

I generally find enough people disagree with my actual views that I don't need to devils advocate at all Smile
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von



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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:37 pm

Quote :
All in all, it is not the government's duty to take care of the people but rather to promote that the people help each other.

I would have to say that these are not mutually exclusive and I disagree with both.

First of all, what level of government? Remember that 'Father' and 'Elder' are both jurisdictions as well. they both 'govern'.

So I assume you mean the 'civil magistrate'. And he has no job providing people income, but to enforce the law. There are times when that law, being enforced, will help 'the poor', in that it will force their employers to pay wages due.

At other times the poor may be 'hurt' by the law, when it condemns them for non-payment, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:45 pm

Von,

Yes, I was referring to 'civil magistrate'. And yes, some law decisions will help the poor. But when judging and executing law, we must remember this verse also:

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. (Leviticus 19:15)

Therefore, whether or not the law hurts or helps the poor, we must also be willing to judge fairly.

In Christ,
Hannah

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If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:21 pm

Hannah Marie wrote:
Von,

Yes, I was referring to 'civil magistrate'. And yes, some law decisions will help the poor. But when judging and executing law, we must remember this verse also:

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. (Leviticus 19:15)

Therefore, whether or not the law hurts or helps the poor, we must also be willing to judge fairly.

In Christ,
Hannah

Exactly.
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:16 am

Greetings,

I think that it would be helpful to clear up an issue of semantics that keeps coming up.

On this forum, when we speak of "government" we are speaking of the national government of law, what Von calls the civil magistrate. We are are not referring to the government of the church or of the parents.

Each of the three institutions of God have distinct jurisdictions and governments and responsibilities. We are talking about the institution of government as distinct from the church and marriage/family.

I hope that this helps to clear up any more debates on semantics. Smile

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:55 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

I think that it would be helpful to clear up an issue of semantics that keeps coming up.

On this forum, when we speak of "government" we are speaking of the national government of law, what Von calls the civil magistrate. We are are not referring to the government of the church or of the parents.

Each of the three institutions of God have distinct jurisdictions and governments and responsibilities. We are talking about the institution of government as distinct from the church and marriage/family.

I hope that this helps to clear up any more debates on semantics. Smile

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

So it only applies to the national government? Not to the various other levels? Local, state?

One reason why I am so big on these semantics is that we in the US tend to push everything out of the realm of family, church, and even local government up to the federal or national level. Thus if someone argues (as I do) that 'child abuse' should not be a federal crime they are accused of saying that children should be abused with impunity.

It is very, very important to make these distinctions. The question isn't merely 'what law' but 'at what level'.
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:31 am

Von,

*sigh* I am not doing a very job of being clear, I guess. I agree completely that we need to be very picky about semantics, and I am not doing very good.

What I am trying to say is that when we say government we are not referring to the church or family. When I said national I was not excluding the state and city parts of a national government. At least that was what I meant.

How would you articulate the institution that deals with law and that is separate from both church and marriage? I always called it government, even though both the church and parents "govern" in a sense in their own jurisdictions. There might be a better term to use.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:29 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Von,

*sigh* I am not doing a very job of being clear, I guess. I agree completely that we need to be very picky about semantics, and I am not doing very good.

What I am trying to say is that when we say government we are not referring to the church or family. When I said national I was not excluding the state and city parts of a national government. At least that was what I meant.

How would you articulate the institution that deals with law and that is separate from both church and marriage? I always called it government, even though both the church and parents "govern" in a sense in their own jurisdictions. There might be a better term to use.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

I would call it the civil magistrate Smile

But my point is larger than that. I think we need to consciously and deliberately and continuously, in any discussion such as this, acknowledge that the father and the elders both have jurisdictions which must be acknowledged and defined.

Thus when we speak of 'lazy people' the question should not just be 'what should the civil magistrate do with lazy people' but, what should the jurisidictions of the family, the church, *and* the civil magistrate do with lazy people.
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:43 pm

von wrote:
But my point is larger than that. I think we need to consciously and deliberately and continuously, in any discussion such as this, acknowledge that the father and the elders both have jurisdictions which must be acknowledged and defined.

Thus when we speak of 'lazy people' the question should not just be 'what should the civil magistrate do with lazy people' but, what should the jurisidictions of the family, the church, *and* the civil magistrate do with lazy people.

Von,

I completely agree that the jurisdictions of the church and the family must be kept in mind. We must always strive to keep their separate responsibilities separate. We should never allow government ( Wink ) to intrude into their realms.

However, it is not the purpose or scope of this forum to delimit the responsibilities of the family or the church beyond what is necessary to determine what the government should not do. That is important, but out of place here. The only way we will ever be able to accomplish anything on this forum is for us to focus. And our focus is on government (or, as you call it, the civil magistrate).

That aside, what do you mean exactly by a civil magistrate? Oxford English Dictionary defines a magistrate as someone who who conducts a court concerned with minor offenses and holds preliminary hearings for more serious ones. That would be more narrow than we are talking about, wouldn't it? It has many different meanings in the Bible, not all of them good.

I like using government, myself, because it is simple and easily clarified as distinct from the other two institutions of God. Does anyone else have any input on this term?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:53 pm

Quote :
However, it is not the purpose or scope of this forum to delimit the responsibilities of the family or the church beyond what is necessary to determine what the government should not do.

Well tis your forum. But I find these three things constantly intermingling. People are constantly saying 'government out to do something about this' and then arguing in a vacuum without considering the various boundaries of the various jurisdictions.

This is particuarly done in this particular realm, the question of poverty. Because Scripture speaks of helping the poor, the implication is immediatly drawn that it shoudl be the government which does so.

For me at least I will constantly be referring to these, and other, jurisdictions.

(Minimum wage, for example, is a violation of the employer jurisdiction.)
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:07 pm

Von,
You are right that there are many different jurisdictions, but we already defined the government's jurisdiction. We are therefore not concerned so much as what other mantle a given idea falls under, so much as whether or not it falls under the mantle of government (as in the governing body of a nation, state, town, or province).

Hannah,
I did not mean that the poor should only try to pick themselves up, but that they should only be helped so far as the Bible delimits. An example would be I Timothy 5:3-13

Honour widows that are widows indeed. But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God. Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day. But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man. Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.


God is saying that if a person can provide for themselves, then they should. God doesn't even consider anyone under sixty to be a widow. This is not exclusive to the other passages you mentioned, on the contrary, we must take the Bible as a whole.
What I am trying to say is that while we should give to the poor, there are the truly poor and the "artificially" poor. Many of the people who seem poor are so not because they cannot work, but because they made bad decisions with their money, getting into debt, etc. I am all for helping these people on an individual basis.

One of my favorite passages is Acts 2: 44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

That is true generosity.

In Christ,

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For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power and love and discipline. --2 Tim 1:7
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Hannah Marie
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:26 pm

Jonathan S. wrote:


Hannah,
I did not mean that the poor should only try to pick themselves up, but that they should only be helped so far as the Bible delimits. An example would be I Timothy 5:3-13

Honour widows that are widows indeed. But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God. Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day. But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man. Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.


God is saying that if a person can provide for themselves, then they should. God doesn't even consider anyone under sixty to be a widow. This is not exclusive to the other passages you mentioned, on the contrary, we must take the Bible as a whole.
What I am trying to say is that while we should give to the poor, there are the truly poor and the "artificially" poor. Many of the people who seem poor are so not because they cannot work, but because they made bad decisions with their money, getting into debt, etc. I am all for helping these people on an individual basis.

One of my favorite passages is Acts 2: 44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

That is true generosity.

In Christ,

Yes, sorry for the misunderstanding. I completely agree with your stance then. Thank you for explaining your position. Smile

_________________
If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
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von



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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:34 pm

Quote :
Von,
You are right that there are many different jurisdictions, but we already defined the government's jurisdiction. We are therefore not concerned so much as what other mantle a given idea falls under, so much as whether or not it falls under the mantle of government (as in the governing body of a nation, state, town, or province).


Ummm. If you have already 'defined' the governments jurisdiction, then you should know what jurisdiction a given idea falls under... that being the definition of definition.

And if you have done so, there are a bunch of theonomists that would love to see your definition, since it is one of the big things we discuss. Can you show it to me?

And I still believe that this work will necessarily involve a serious examination of all jurisdictions. The forums title is:

Quote :
A Christian forum dedicated to the discussion of how a nation based entirely off of biblical principles ought to be like. We believe that Righteousness Exalteth a Nation, and that God's righteous hand is necessary for the blessing of any nation.

A nation consists of all of its jurisdictions: self, family, employer/master, church, civil etc. One way of clearly seeing what jurisdiction somethign does NOT fall in is seeing what what it does.
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Jonathan S.
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:59 am

Sorry, I haven't read the purpose of government and crime threads in a while, and forgot that they weren't quiet finished. As for the other jurisdictions, I agree that there are many different ones, possibly put best into three categories. Church, Family, and People. Economic calculation and medical care, for instance, fall into the hands of every person, instead of having to make an exhaustive list of every jurisdiction. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

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For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power and love and discipline. --2 Tim 1:7
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von



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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:26 am

Jonathan S. wrote:
Sorry, I haven't read the purpose of government and crime threads in a while, and forgot that they weren't quiet finished. As for the other jurisdictions, I agree that there are many different ones, possibly put best into three categories. Church, Family, and People. Economic calculation and medical care, for instance, fall into the hands of every person, instead of having to make an exhaustive list of every jurisdiction. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

Leaving 'economic calculation' aside, which is a mental process not an actual activity:

There are more than three jurisdictions. There are, in Scripture, at least:

Individual
Employer/Employee (Master/Slave)
Father/Husband vs Wife/Children/Household
Elder vs Covenanting family
Civil magistrate vs citizen

Of these it could be argued that medical care falls within each jurisdiction in a different way.

The individual, for example, is required to treat their body as the temple of the Holy Spirit; which I would argue involves at least taking care to be healthy and seeking medical attention where required.

The Employer and co-workers are required to 'lift up' their co-worker, which I would infer includes both the provision of as safe a workplace as rationally required considering the type of work, and providing and seeking medical care in the case of an accident.

Skippping the father...

The Elders are required to lay hands on the sick, which I would argue includes encouraging those in their congregation to contact them and share their needs,etc.

The civil magistrate is responsible for the common defense, which I would argue includes the provision of medical care during disasters, attacks, after crimes, etc.

But the bulk of the medical provision falls properly on the shoulders of the father. He is the one responsible for making all reasonable efforts to keep his family healthy, and provide for them financially during any medical crisis.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:29 am

A quick note to avoid confusion.

In saying 'The employer is responsible for' I am not saying 'The civil magistrate is responsible for seeing that the employer does those things'. I am saying that the employer is responsible before God.
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Hannah Marie
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PostSubject: Re: Lazy People   Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:33 am

Von,

I see the purpose of this forum just as Jay does, to delimit government’s, or ‘civil magistrate’s’ in your terms, jurisdiction. While there are other areas that have the job of governing, we focus on one aspect of it so to speak. Instead of having a long list of jurisdictions to consider, we decide whether or not an idea or philosophy falls under the ‘civil magistrate’ category. If it doesn't, then we determine whether it is the church's or the people's responsibility. If it does, we then determine how much control the ‘civil magistrate’ has over this area. The other jurisdictions are just as important, I agree. However, that is not our main focus. (If my reasoning or assumptions are wrong, feel free to correct them.) Maybe this discussion should take place in the Purpose of Government thread, since it is really defining government.


That being said, I think we have strayed a bit from the actual topic of this thread. Peter wanted to know whether or not government should provide for our every need and how the welfare system should work. May I lovingly suggest we redirect our focus to Peter’s original posted topic?

In Christ,
Hannah

_________________
If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
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