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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:33 am

Peter G. wrote:
Sounds good Jay. Though do you think we might change the definition so much that we might have to go back and change other things as well?

And we need to get back on track people. Do we have a conclusion yet for this thread on utilities?

In Christ,
Peter G.

I don't think it will change much.

That is waiting for my thesis, sorrowfully. Smile

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:10 pm

Neither do I, but you never know. Wink

Ah. I see. How close are you? Would you like to give out what you have and then have us help you?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:21 am

Peter G. wrote:
Neither do I, but you never know. Wink

Ah. I see. How close are you? Would you like to give out what you have and then have us help you?

In Christ,
Peter G.

Patience.... Wink

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:27 am

I know I know. Wink

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:11 pm

caleb wrote:
Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
But how do you know that government is to be limited and small?

We see it in the order and timing of the different spheres of life (family, church, & state) given in Genesis. The family is the first and most important of the three. Not only is this true because it was the first one established, but the Bible speaks more about this sphere than the other two and holds it in high regard. The church is seen to come about next, and also has many passages dealing with its organization, function, and jurisdiction. (Possibly even more then governments. It definitely has more direct commands then government does.) When we look at Genesis historically, the first signs of government don't appear until about 400-500 years after creation. The commands and principles we find in Scripture lead us to conclude that government is to be limited and, thus, small.
I'm not sure I understand this argument. Basically, you're saying that since government was introduced after church and family, and because there are fewer commands about government, government must be very limited. Right? I'm not sure I would agree with this logic.
In order to make my point as clearly as possible I will use the example of the Lord's Table, also known as Communion. This was introduced thousands of years after family, church, and government. Also, God gave us no commands about it except to do it in remembrance of Christ. He also said that by doing it, we proclaim the Lord's death until He returns. But does this mean that communion must be limited, or that we have fewer freedoms with regard to communion than government? I don't think so. The absence of commands actually increases the range of things we are allowed to do. Can we do it in a group of 12? Absolutely. Can we do it alone? There are no commands that say how many people have to do it, so if you are the only Christian in a city, I would assume it would be fine to do it alone. Can we do it with bread made of rice? Can we do it with bread made of wheat? Can we do it with oyster crackers in order to make it easier for a large group of people to share the Lord's Table together? Because there are no commands about what kind of bread to use, we assume that it is fine to use any kind of bread. Thus, I don't think we can say that having fewer commands about something means that that thing must be more limited. If it's not true of Communion, the I don't think it is true of government.
Rather, the reason government must be limited is that nearly every action the government takes requires taking tax money by force. Thus, we must be careful that we only use the money in ways that do not violate the command "Do not steal."
This is why I want to discuss whether the government can build or regulate roads without stealing.
I hope I'm not repeating myself again. Sorry if I am. I guess I'll just wait for Jay to post his thesis.

In Christ,
Daniel

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:

Rather, the reason government must be limited is that nearly every action the government takes requires taking tax money by force. Thus, we must be careful that we only use the money in ways that do not violate the command "Do not steal."
This is why I want to discuss whether the government can build or regulate roads without stealing.
I hope I'm not repeating myself again. Sorry if I am. I guess I'll just wait for Jay to post his thesis.

In Christ,
Daniel

This last statement that you made here (the one that I underlined) is exactly what I have been proposing.

I am very sorry that it has been taking so long for me to put my thesis together. I dearly want to get it done for many reasons, but I have not been able to touch it for a long time due to some very important websites that I have had to make really quickly and stuff like that. Very sorry, and I will sincerely try to get into the thesis again. :(

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:12 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
I'm not sure I understand this argument. Basically, you're saying that since government was introduced after church and family, and because there are fewer commands about government, government must be very limited. Right? I'm not sure I would agree with this logic.

I appreciate your post on this, and, in fact, your reasoning is good in regards to the Lord's supper. That being said, my point is slightly different. The government is one of three spheres of relationships in life (the other two being, of course, the family and church.) Looking at it in contrast to the other two spheres of life as given in the Bible, the government has comparatively fewer commands and principles.

Your argument is sound in your example of communion, however, it is slightly different if you look at it in the context of how I was presenting my argument. Does that make sense? I'll admit that it isn't the strongest argument for the point, but I do think it is valid. Let me know if I need to clarify further. The issue of taxes is another debate.

Jay, I'm wondering if we need to move the Taxation thread from the Cellar to the Queue. It seems to me that if we are going to argue the validity of taxation, it should be done on this forum. If we determine that taxes are valid for biblical governments, then discussion on the amount or kind of tax could be reserved for LL2.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:23 am

caleb wrote:


Jay, I'm wondering if we need to move the Taxation thread from the Cellar to the Queue. It seems to me that if we are going to argue the validity of taxation, it should be done on this forum. If we determine that taxes are valid for biblical governments, then discussion on the amount or kind of tax could be reserved for LL2.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

I agree, and did so.

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:07 pm

caleb wrote:
appreciate your post on this, and, in fact, your reasoning is good in regards to the Lord's supper. That being said, my point is slightly different. The government is one of three spheres of relationships in life (the other two being, of course, the family and church.) Looking at it in contrast to the other two spheres of life as given in the Bible, the government has comparatively fewer commands and principles.

If my understanding of Bastiat's The Law is correct, the government is not to be less powerful than the other institutions but simply more limited. The fact is, while the church and family have several purposes, the government has one purpose which is so difficult to attain that it must apply all it's energies to fulfill this one purpose, or it will fail entirely. So, I agree, and don't agree, with your conclusions.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:03 am

Jordan Wright wrote:
caleb wrote:
appreciate your post on this, and, in fact, your reasoning is good in regards to the Lord's supper. That being said, my point is slightly different. The government is one of three spheres of relationships in life (the other two being, of course, the family and church.) Looking at it in contrast to the other two spheres of life as given in the Bible, the government has comparatively fewer commands and principles.

If my understanding of Bastiat's The Law is correct, the government is not to be less powerful than the other institutions but simply more limited. The fact is, while the church and family have several purposes, the government has one purpose which is so difficult to attain that it must apply all it's energies to fulfill this one purpose, or it will fail entirely. So, I agree, and don't agree, with your conclusions.

That is what I was thinking of. Strong, but Limited because it is Strong.

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:00 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:

I am very sorry that it has been taking so long for me to put my thesis together. I dearly want to get it done for many reasons, but I have not been able to touch it for a long time due to some very important websites that I have had to make really quickly and stuff like that. Very sorry, and I will sincerely try to get into the thesis again. :(

I shall hold you to that promise, brother Jay. Smile

(And, for the record, he really has been terribly busy... I've seen some of the stuff he's been working on. Smile)

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Dr. Hipopótamo
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:13 pm

caleb wrote:
Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
I'm not sure I understand this argument. Basically, you're saying that since government was introduced after church and family, and because there are fewer commands about government, government must be very limited. Right? I'm not sure I would agree with this logic.

I appreciate your post on this, and, in fact, your reasoning is good in regards to the Lord's supper. That being said, my point is slightly different. The government is one of three spheres of relationships in life (the other two being, of course, the family and church.) Looking at it in contrast to the other two spheres of life as given in the Bible, the government has comparatively fewer commands and principles.

Your argument is sound in your example of communion, however, it is slightly different if you look at it in the context of how I was presenting my argument. Does that make sense? I'll admit that it isn't the strongest argument for the point, but I do think it is valid. Let me know if I need to clarify further. The issue of taxes is another debate.

Jay, I'm wondering if we need to move the Taxation thread from the Cellar to the Queue. It seems to me that if we are going to argue the validity of taxation, it should be done on this forum. If we determine that taxes are valid for biblical governments, then discussion on the amount or kind of tax could be reserved for LL2.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
I understand that there are significant differences between communion and government. I'm sorry I couldn't think of a better analogy (I was actually going to use bungee jumping, but then I realized communion would be slightly more applicable Smile ). But I still think the absence of commands usually increases freedoms. So I believe that the fact that the Bible doesn't talk about government much either means 1) that we have the freedom to do more, 2) that the commands given to Christians in general are enough to limit what Christians do in government, or 3) that God doesn't necessarily want most Christians to be heavily involved in government. I would say the second is most likely.
I would like to hear a little bit more about why the principle is different because the government is one of the three spheres of relationships.
Either way, I agree that government should be limited, but the reason why it should be limited could affect the conclusions about to what extent, and in which areas, the government should be limited.

In Christ,
Daniel

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:53 pm

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
But I still think the absence of commands usually increases freedoms.

In this case, the reason that there are few commands is because, to quote Bastiat, "Law is justice." Nothing more. Law is equal to the other spheres (or institutions). Family is limited to family. Church is limited to church. Government is limited to justice. The lack of commands simply indicates the simplicity of government. Government is not free. Government is limited to justice.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:47 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Either way, I agree that government should be limited, but the reason why it should be limited could affect the conclusions about to what extent, and in which areas, the government should be limited.

For now, I will content myself with agreeing to your conclusion though our reasoning is different.

-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:27 pm

Jordan Wright wrote:
Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
But I still think the absence of commands usually increases freedoms.

In this case, the reason that there are few commands is because, to quote Bastiat, "Law is justice." Nothing more. Law is equal to the other spheres (or institutions). Family is limited to family. Church is limited to church. Government is limited to justice. The lack of commands simply indicates the simplicity of government. Government is not free. Government is limited to justice.


If law is justice, then government is only limited to justice to the extent that it is limited to law. How do we know that government is limited to law? What if the government is limited to, for example, law, building and maintaining roads, and disaster relief?
Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:12 pm

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Jordan Wright wrote:
Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
But I still think the absence of commands usually increases freedoms.

In this case, the reason that there are few commands is because, to quote Bastiat, "Law is justice." Nothing more. Law is equal to the other spheres (or institutions). Family is limited to family. Church is limited to church. Government is limited to justice. The lack of commands simply indicates the simplicity of government. Government is not free. Government is limited to justice.


If law is justice, then government is only limited to justice to the extent that it is limited to law. How do we know that government is limited to law? What if the government is limited to, for example, law, building and maintaining roads, and disaster relief?
Evil or Very Mad

The problem is that in order for government to build and maintain roads, or to participate in disaster relief, is that it must take the funds necessary from the people, through force, which is legal plunder and therefore a violation of justice. If the government is to uphold justice, then it cannot perform any office except the execution of justice.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:52 pm

Crying or Very sad Right, but it's not necessarily legal plunder if the people aren't against it. As far as disaster relief goes, there will probably be cases where government help is necessary because they have the resources that were built for the military but can be used for disaster relief, such as helicopters, well-trained soldiers, etc. No good citizen would mind having to pay an extra buck or two to help with something like the hurricanes in New Orleans or the Hurricanes in Haiti, at least not at the stage where the military is the only organization that can provide immediate help. If you were borrowing twenty dollars from a friend, and you saw someone dying of hypothermia and you needed paper to get a fire going and all you had was the twenty-dollar bill you wouldn't say, "Sorry, this money belongs to someone else, so I can't burn it. Oh, well, I'll see you in heaven." You would burn the money to save his life! And your friend wouldn't mind at all. I know this is a pretty unlikely example, but the principle is still true. And the principle can also be applied to disaster relief.

As for roads, A) most tax-paying citizens want roads, and B) you might be able to find some way of only charging the tax for roads to the citizens who use them. For example, you could decide that all payment for roads will come only out of extra sales taxes that are levied on cars, road bicycles, motorcycles, and gasoline.
If there were an obvious free-market way to build roads, I would be all for it. But the problem is that first someone has to own all the land, build it, and have a way to profit from it. Also, competition would be very difficult, which would result in a monopoly, and the owner of the road could charge a hundred dollars every time you leave your driveway. If another road company wanted to build another road to compete, they would have to buy another very long, narrow strip of land that is parallel to the first and goes basically the same way. This would be very wasteful, and if the second company wanted to build a road that goes across the first road, they would have to have permission, and the first company could maintain their monopoly by refusing to give permission. And there would be the problem of other utilities like gas and water. The water company would have to have permission from the road company to build a pipe under the road. The road tycoon could refuse this permission, and then only he would be able to run a water service. He could finance it with the money he's earned from the roads. Eventually, you could have all your utilities run by a single organization, but the people wouldn't be able to vote on prices or anything like that. They would have to either pay whatever prices he charged or not use the services. They wouldn't have the option of using a different service, because there wouldn't be any way for someone to start another service.

I'm using dark red and a sad face, to indicate that this post is sort of Devil's advocate, but not all the way, because I'm not exactly sure what I think of some of these issues. When people assume that the government should build roads, I give the reasons why they shouldn't, and when people assume that the government shouldn't build roads, I give reasons why they should. I haven't heard any sufficient argument to convince me either way. (maybe when Jay finishes his thesis I will, or then again, maybe not.)

In Christ,
Daniel

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:09 am

I just posted a thread here for the discussion of the first part in my 8+ part series on theonomocracy (or whatever we will call it). It provides part of the foundation for my next article, which will address this issue more directly.

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat May 15, 2010 5:05 pm

Law is justice, and only justice. The government exists to exercise justice. The government does this by in some way prosecuting anyone who breaches another persons three God-given rights.

So, while a good citizen may not mind giving money for to the government to create a maintain a utility, it still isn't the government's job.

And, for those who wish to know, I do have a very elaborate idea of how utilities and charities might still exist without government involvement, and this system would actually improve the over all quality of these things.

I would also note that Dr. Hipopotamo's post is somewhat democratic. But Law is an absolute, and the Law's stipulations about government are therefore, absolute. If the majority of the population desires roads, let them get roads through private enterprise.

There is a somewhat obvious free market way to build roads, but it's somewhat lengthy. PM Jay or I, or both of us, about it, and I'm sure one of us will explain it post haste.
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