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Dr. Hipopótamo
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:12 am

Jay,
It seems like you're making two arguments here:
A) That God commands that governments not build roads, and
B) That it would work well with the free market for government to stay out of building roads.

I have no objections (yet --I'd have to study more) to your second argument, and right now I would lean towards keeping the government out of roads, but not because it is wrong for governments to build roads. It seems your first argument is based on our conclusion about the purpose of government. Your logic makes sense that if our conclusion was correct, there can be no government-built roads. However, in light of the scripture in Deuteronomy we've discussed, I would have to take another look at how we arrived at that conclusion. I'm wondering if our conclusion might have been too limited.

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:26 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Peter G. wrote:
Well Daniel, we are the people deciding now. We are trying to write a "constitution". You basically just enforced what Jay has been saying. But that still doesn't completely address the topic at hand. Since we are deciding, we must choose a "side". We must show which is the correct side, and therefore, what is your "side"?

In Christ,
Peter G.

It depends on what you mean. Why I'm trying to show is that there may be more than one correct side (if correct side means that going with any other side would be sin and tyranny), and we should try to find the better side (meaning that neither one is wrong but one may be easier or more convenient, etc). I would prefer to wait until we've decided whether or not there is one and only one "correct" side, before we discuss which side is "better". After all, if there's only one correct side, then it doesn't matter which side is better, we must obey God, but if we conclude that there is more than one correct way to do it, we can then discuss which of those ways is better, and while one side may be unwise, neither side is absolutely wrong, as it would be if the side violated Scripture. Then we could use logistics and history in our discussion, as well as Scriptural principles, but not Scriptural commands.

See what I mean, or am I missing something?

You stated the question very well, Dr. Thank you.

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:41 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Jay,
It seems like you're making two arguments here:
A) That God commands that governments not build roads, and
B) That it would work well with the free market for government to stay out of building roads.

I have no objections (yet --I'd have to study more) to your second argument, and right now I would lean towards keeping the government out of roads, but not because it is wrong for governments to build roads. It seems your first argument is based on our conclusion about the purpose of government. Your logic makes sense that if our conclusion was correct, there can be no government-built roads. However, in light of the scripture in Deuteronomy we've discussed, I would have to take another look at how we arrived at that conclusion. I'm wondering if our conclusion might have been too limited.

Correct, those are my two arguments. You made a very good point (that I also made earlier in a less concise way), that the second is utterly subservient to the first.

I am partly basing this off of our conclusion regrading the purpose of government. I am also basing it off of the complete absence of laws in OT Israel for government making roads.

It seems that the only thing that is holding us all in stalemate here is the interpretation of God's command to Moses to 'prepare thee a way.' If that adds something to the role of government in the NT, then we need to go and edit our conclusion on the purpose of government. If it does not, then government cannot biblically create or maintain roads. Is this correct?

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:22 am

Well, I took a look at our archived "What is the Purpose of Government" discussion and we really didn't discuss anything pertaining to utilities. Also, I didn't see a lot of Biblical backing to our conclusion. It seemed like the whole discussion was in some ways a reaction to the extreme government interference in our everyday lives that we see today. The conclusion we came up with sounded great after all the government interference we've seen in present times. Looking back, however, I don't think we really thought through all the potential ramifications of such a conclusion. We also brought up very little scripture in that discussion. That's not to say it wasn't true, but maybe we could sort of consider this an extension of that discussion and thus this utilities discussion will either modify or re-enforce our previous conclusion. Am I making sense?

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:28 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:


It seems that the only thing that is holding us all in stalemate here is the interpretation of God's command to Moses to 'prepare thee a way.' If that adds something to the role of government in the NT, then we need to go and edit our conclusion on the purpose of government. If it does not, then government cannot biblically create or maintain roads. Is this correct?

I would also study history around that time period. Were the roads they used set up by governments, or private individuals? How were they set up? Were they merely well-worn paths? If so, then does new technology (i.e. the invention of cars and cement) necessitate different action?

More thoughts on this later.

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:41 am

Hmmm... Well, we really do not need to rely on a definition of the purpose of government at this juncture. My logical case (outlined here) for the need for the absence of a law in the event of its absence in the civil law code of OT Israel will be sufficient to give us leeway to go on. So we can focus on that mention of 'preparing a way' that Caleb brought up for now. I will go and do some digging about that conclusion though. It needs to be solid. Smile

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:43 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:


It seems that the only thing that is holding us all in stalemate here is the interpretation of God's command to Moses to 'prepare thee a way.' If that adds something to the role of government in the NT, then we need to go and edit our conclusion on the purpose of government. If it does not, then government cannot biblically create or maintain roads. Is this correct?

I would also study history around that time period. Were the roads they used set up by governments, or private individuals? How were they set up? Were they merely well-worn paths? If so, then does new technology (i.e. the invention of cars and cement) necessitate different action?

More thoughts on this later.

I would prefer to limit ourselves to only what is found in the Biblical accounts, to make sure that our sources are valid. The Bible is our best ally in this issue. Make sense?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:07 pm

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:


It seems that the only thing that is holding us all in stalemate here is the interpretation of God's command to Moses to 'prepare thee a way.' If that adds something to the role of government in the NT, then we need to go and edit our conclusion on the purpose of government. If it does not, then government cannot biblically create or maintain roads. Is this correct?

I would also study history around that time period. Were the roads they used set up by governments, or private individuals? How were they set up? Were they merely well-worn paths? If so, then does new technology (i.e. the invention of cars and cement) necessitate different action?

More thoughts on this later.

I would prefer to limit ourselves to only what is found in the Biblical accounts, to make sure that our sources are valid. The Bible is our best ally in this issue. Make sense?

Yes, the Bible is our best ally. It is the only source we can trust completely. However, the Bible is scripture, not a constitution. Thus, I think it's possible that the Bible didn't completely outline all the duties of government. It may be possible that God didn't command the Israelite government to build roads because they already knew to, because every government built roads. Just like there's nothing in the OT Law (as far as I know) about the government making alliances, fighting to defend the homeland, etc. If every other government did these things, and God wanted Israel to do the same, then it is likely that He would not have put anything about it in scripture. However, if every other government was doing something that God did not want Israel to do, it is more likely that He would have put something about that in scripture, or at least told the Israelite government to stop doing it if they did. Thus, if there's nothing about roads in the Bible, but every government was building them, and Israel's government was building roads, then this could very well mean that it's not a sin for a government to build roads.

See what I mean?

By the way, I couldn't find your logical case for the need for the absence of a law in the event of its absence in the civil law code of OT Israel. I clicked on the link, and it took me to the immigration discussion, but I wasn't sure which post to look at. Did I get to the right page? Could you tell me which post it is? Thanks.

In Christ,
Daniel

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:12 am

Dr.,

That is the right thread. I posted two large articles on there (one on the first page, and the other, the one I am referring to, on the second page) about immigration, basing my case on the same thing that I am basing this case on.

Simple question: Who instituted government? If you say man, then you need to read more of your Bible. Government was instituted by God and His Word is all-sufficient for informing us how to obey His desires for His institution. Agreed?

Another thing: God did have laws pertaining to both national defense and foreign alliances in OT Israel. They had strict instruction regarding both those things.

Also: God hates it when His people go to people other than Himself for ideas of government. You can see a vivid example of this in 1 Samuel 8. Israel had been following God's orders (off and on), and they decided that they did not like the way God told them to do it. They said that they wanted to do it like the other nations. God cursed them in punishment by agreeing to their demands. The problem was that they wanted to follow other nations, not God's plan. We definitely should not assume that God left them to follow the example of other nations in anything!

The main point is that we are not here to create a prohibitive list of "don'ts" for government. We are here to create an exclusive list of "dos." This is crucial to understand. If you just delimit what government cannot do, then you will very soon have tyranny and perversion.

Thoughts?

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:36 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:

Simple question: Who instituted government? If you say man, then you need to read more of your Bible. Government was instituted by God and His Word is all-sufficient for informing us how to obey His desires for His institution. Agreed?

Jay,
I definitely agree about this. I'll reply to the rest later (I'm kind of busy right now). Until then, yes, I believe that government is instituted by God. That's why He commands us to submit to them (unless they contradict what He tells us to do).

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:53 pm

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:

Simple question: Who instituted government? If you say man, then you need to read more of your Bible. Government was instituted by God and His Word is all-sufficient for informing us how to obey His desires for His institution. Agreed?

Jay,
I definitely agree about this. I'll reply to the rest later (I'm kind of busy right now). Until then, yes, I believe that government is instituted by God. That's why He commands us to submit to them (unless they contradict what He tells us to do).

Good. That is sort of foundational. Smile Talk to you later!

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:07 pm

Jay,
Yes, God hates it when people ignore His commands and look to others instead. And there are examples of times (like the one you mentioned -1 Samuel 8) where God said they had rejected Him as king. When they disobey God's commands, He warns them of what the consequences will be. He also warned them when they broke many other commandments, like to remember the Sabbath. This is what makes me wonder if part of God's plan for government could have included building roads when necessary. If Israel's government did this, and God never rebuked or warned them for it, then doesn't it make sense to say that maybe God wanted governments to build roads when necessary, since He did not object as He did when they rejected Him by asking for a king? That's why I think it's important to look at the history as well as just looking in the Bible, if there is no clear Biblical command either way.

I would be willing to try having the government not build roads, and I think it might work like you say. But if it turns out we're wrong, and no good road systems are built, then I would take another look at the possibility of having the government do it. This could come perhaps as an amendment to the constitution.

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:00 pm

caleb wrote:
God commanded the Israelite governmental leaders to build roads.

Deuteronomy 19:3- "Thou shalt prepare thee a way, and divide the coasts of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to inherit, into three parts, that every slayer may flee thither." (New King James translates this in language a little easier to understand when it says: "You shall prepare roads for yourself, and divide into three parts the territory of your land which the LORD your God is giving you to inherit, that any manslayer may flee there.")

The word in the Hebrew is 'derek' which is translated 'way' or 'road.' So if God commanded the Israel government (see context of passage) to build roads, then He couldn't "not want governments to build, control, or maintain roads."

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,...

You cite a Biblical passage that appears to infer that God commanded the government of Israel to at least oversee, if not actually build the roads themselves. If this is true then we would need to study the context and discern the NT application of the principle involved just like with the rest of our discussions, which would take a long long time since it is wound up with the avenger of blood and capital punishment. But after an open minded research (l like those ones best), I discovered that that was not needed, thankfully. Smile

I studied the surrounding context, and the topical context both (both are crucially necessary to accurate Biblical studies). I discovered the following.

The actual phrasing of the passage you quoted does not require that those who erect (set up, establish, appoint) the way (road, course of life, mode of action) be the government itself, but the people of Israel. It is slightly ambiguous. So I went to go look at the Scripture that describes them choosing the cities of refuge (which is when the roads were to be planned and constructed).

OK, after going back and rereading our previous arguments and reexamining Scripture, I have reached a conclusion on this discussion. Here goes.

First of all, (and I'm surprised Jay didn't catch me on this) my argument used a very dangerous hermeneutical ploy. I built a doctrine off of one, and only one verse in the Bible. This is very dangerous to do, and one which usually leads to wrong conclusions or heresies. (Don't worry, I'm not condemning my past self as a heretic.)

After looking through Scripture again, I could not find another verse in which God commanded the government to build roads. Going back to Deuteronomy 19, I looking for the audience to whom God was speaking. The language in the surrounding chapters, including this passage, seems to denote that God is talking to all of Israel, not just the government.

Chapter 17:14-20 talks about when they (the audience to whom God is speaking) arrive in the promised land which God promised them and set up a king for themselves. This is clearly the entire nation being referred to, not just the government. Chapter 18:1-8 talks about how the people should treat the Levites; again, not exclusive to members of the governing body. Verses 9-14 command all of the people to abstain from wicked customs. Verses 15-22 speak of God raising up a prophet like Moses for the people. That ushers us into 19:3 with the command to build roads. The language or context doesn't change at all. Clearly the preceding passages are spoken to all the people, not just the governing officials. Chapter 19:1-13 talk about how everyone should treat manslayers; it isn't restricted to the government.

Therefore, this passage, does not support the argument that God commanded the government to build roads. The command was a broad command to all the people. Nowhere in Scripture do we find a command from God for the government to participate in any "utility" but only to protect people's life, liberty, and property, and to punish those who threaten or harm others' life, liberty, or property.

caleb wrote:
The problem here with private companies building the roads is that you run into the need for the government to still oversee or somewhat control things; hence the need for anti-trust laws and other laws against tycoons, industrial espionage, etc. which do, in fact, take away people's liberty and/or property.

I'm surprised you didn't bring up the example of the railroad industry. However, since I think it also supports my case, I'll do that.... Soon the government had to intervene with anti-trust laws to put a stop to this tyranny against people's property (money) and liberty (use of public transportation or mail and shipping.) These laws have helped for the most part, but there are only a handful of different railroad line owners today than in the beginning (and prices are not as affordable as they once were.) I will say that the railroads are used more today than in any other time in history, but this can only be because prices have remained bearable thanks to the government's 'referee like' role in this industry.

I will say, however, that this is your best argument, Jay.

Another good point, (probably your second best) but I imagine private companies cutting corners to reduce expenses and make a quicker profit. For instance, bridges or overpasses would be extremely expensive to make and also quite dangerous to cut corners on. Sure, companies could spend the extra money, time, and care to do a good job, but this will either result in higher tolls or a longer wait to gain money off of the project. (Something most businesses would rather not do.) Through taxes and maybe small tolls, the government can easily pay these expenses to do a good job every time. (Especially when you cut out most of the other spending we see such as health care and other programs.)

My two points (anti-trust laws because of tycoons and poor construction resulting in dangerous structures) can still be dealt with, without the government building roads. The tycooning is clearly threatening or robbing people of liberty and property, thus it can be prosecuted in court and case applications can eventually be made to prevent it. Sloppy, cutting corners construction clearly threatens peoples' life and thus can also be prosecuted in court etc. The government need not be involved in the construction process, but simply make sure that peoples' life, liberty, and property are protected.

My other arguments about tolls will be offset by the fact that taxes will be reduced. Since the government doesn't need to build roads, people don't need to pay as many taxes, and that money can be given to the private companies in tolls.

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Thus, I think it's possible that the Bible didn't completely outline all the duties of government. It may be possible that God didn't command the Israelite government to build roads because they already knew to, because every government built roads.... If every other government did these things, and God wanted Israel to do the same, then it is likely that He would not have put anything about it in scripture.

Daniel, this is proof by lack of evidence. (A logical fallacy.) Not only that, but your first line denies the full sufficiency of the Scriptures in everything. (I'm still trying to learn this.) God provided everything we need to run a government and know all of its duties. He clearly says that making roads is not restricted to the government body.

Thus I conclude:

The government is not to participate in any "utility" but only to protect people's life, liberty, and property, and to punish those who threaten or harm others' life, liberty, or property. Utilities are outside the jurisdiction of the government and are biblically, efficiently, and best left to private companies and individuals.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:48 pm

Caleb wrote:
First of all, (and I'm surprised Jay didn't catch me on this) my argument used a very dangerous hermeneutical ploy. I built a doctrine off of one, and only one verse in the Bible. This is very dangerous to do, and one which usually leads to wrong conclusions or heresies. (Don't worry, I'm not condemning my past self as a heretic.)

Caleb,

I am glad you took the time to think about this more and that you caught that mistake and corrected it! Great job studying this out and thinking outside of the cultural "box" we sometimes get caught in.

Caleb wrote:
My two points (anti-trust laws because of tycoons and poor construction resulting in dangerous structures) can still be dealt with, without the government building roads. The tycooning is clearly threatening or robbing people of liberty and property, thus it can be prosecuted in court and case applications can eventually be made to prevent it. Sloppy, cutting corners construction clearly threatens peoples' life and thus can also be prosecuted in court etc. The government need not be involved in the construction process, but simply make sure that peoples' life, liberty, and property are protected.

My other arguments about tolls will be offset by the fact that taxes will be reduced. Since the government doesn't need to build roads, people don't need to pay as many taxes, and that money can be given to the private companies in tolls.

Right! That solves the problem completely.

Caleb wrote:
The government is not to participate in any "utility" but only to protect people's life, liberty, and property, and to punish those who threaten or harm others' life, liberty, or property. Utilities are outside the jurisdiction of the government and are biblically, efficiently, and best left to private companies and individuals.

I agree with this conclusion. It is biblical, lines up with our definition of the government's role, and makes sense economically. Good job!

God bless,
Carissa aka Duchess Daisy

P.S. My dad and I just read through this whole thread, and we both agreed on this. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:09 am

Caleb,

I agree with this conclusion.

Also, should we start a thread about who's job it really is to make roads and etc? Or would that be for LL2?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:23 pm

caleb wrote:

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Thus, I think it's possible that the Bible didn't completely outline all the duties of government. It may be possible that God didn't command the Israelite government to build roads because they already knew to, because every government built roads.... If every other government did these things, and God wanted Israel to do the same, then it is likely that He would not have put anything about it in scripture.

Daniel, this is proof by lack of evidence. (A logical fallacy.) Not only that, but your first line denies the full sufficiency of the Scriptures in everything. (I'm still trying to learn this.) God provided everything we need to run a government and know all of its duties. He clearly says that making roads is not restricted to the government body.

Thus I conclude:

The government is not to participate in any "utility" but only to protect people's life, liberty, and property, and to punish those who threaten or harm others' life, liberty, or property. Utilities are outside the jurisdiction of the government and are biblically, efficiently, and best left to private companies and individuals.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Caleb,
I am not quite ready to agree yet. Crying or Very sad I would like to wait and do a historical study of this subject. If Israel's government never built roads, then it's very possible that God doesn't want any government building roads (unless of course the invention of cars and cement necessitates a different kind of road that can only be built by the government.) If Israel's government did build roads, then because there is nothing in the Bible to say that this was wrong, then I think it is likely that it is not wrong.
You say this is proof by lack of evidence. I don't see it this way. I think it's more of a generalization (which is only a fallacy if done hastily and badly.) In every instance I can think of where Israel's government did something wrong, God warned them about it. Thus, in every instance where God did not warn them, they weren't doing anything wrong (or at least nothing very important). So I'm saying that since this is a case where God did not warn them, then it is likely that they weren't doing anything wrong.
I would also like to hear a little more about the full sufficiency of the Scriptures in everything. I believe that the Scriptures are God-inspired and completely true. I also believe they are fully sufficient for everything they were intended to be, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "everything". The Bible tells us everything we need to know for life and godliness, but it doesn't tell us everything we need to know to program computers. We can apply Biblical principles when programming computers (like diligence, etc.) but it's not going to tell us exactly how to do everything. That's why God gave us math, science, history, etc. So could you please help me understand what you mean by this phrase? (I know you don't think the Bible tells us exactly how to program computers, but where do you draw the line, and why?)

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:14 am

Peter G. wrote:
Caleb,

I agree with this conclusion.

Also, should we start a thread about who's job it really is to make roads and etc? Or would that be for LL2?

In Christ,
Peter G.

This thread would be in LL2, however, I don't even see the need for it being in that. LL2 would be discussing detailed specifics on how the government should be run and what it should do. Since we've so far determined that utilities are outside the role and jurisdiction of the government, we don't need to discuss it in LL2. That's my thought on it though. Jay will make the final call.

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Caleb,
I am not quite ready to agree yet. Crying or Very sad I would like to wait and do a historical study of this subject. If Israel's government never built roads, then it's very possible that God doesn't want any government building roads (unless of course the invention of cars and cement necessitates a different kind of road that can only be built by the government.) If Israel's government did build roads, then because there is nothing in the Bible to say that this was wrong, then I think it is likely that it is not wrong.
You say this is proof by lack of evidence. I don't see it this way. I think it's more of a generalization (which is only a fallacy if done hastily and badly.) In every instance I can think of where Israel's government did something wrong, God warned them about it. Thus, in every instance where God did not warn them, they weren't doing anything wrong (or at least nothing very important). So I'm saying that since this is a case where God did not warn them, then it is likely that they weren't doing anything wrong.


You actually don't need to do a historical study of Israel to find out. All you have to do is look at Scripture. In my previous post, I showed that the context of this passage indicates that God was speaking to all of Israel in regards to building roads. Jay also posted a passage which showed that the people built the roads, not the government. God commanded the people to build the roads, thus we don't have to look for a passage which says that it is wrong for the government to build roads.

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
I would also like to hear a little more about the full sufficiency of the Scriptures in everything. I believe that the Scriptures are God-inspired and completely true. I also believe they are fully sufficient for everything they were intended to be, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "everything". The Bible tells us everything we need to know for life and godliness, but it doesn't tell us everything we need to know to program computers. We can apply Biblical principles when programming computers (like diligence, etc.) but it's not going to tell us exactly how to do everything. That's why God gave us math, science, history, etc. So could you please help me understand what you mean by this phrase? (I know you don't think the Bible tells us exactly how to program computers, but where do you draw the line, and why?)

I don't have the time to address this right now, but when I do, I'll pm it to you since it is kind of off topic. It might be a few days though.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:09 am

Greetings,

I want to commend you publicly Caleb. You have shown great maturity in being willing to admit that you were wrong. This is not crowing over proving you wrong by any means, because it was the Bible, not me. I just want to encourage you in your honesty and humility. Thank you. Smile

I actually did notice that hermeneutic error, but I decided not to focus on that. I knew that every verse must work in harmony: there can be no schism in the Bible. Therefore I set myself to see how the verse that you brought up fit in the context of all the other passages.

God gives us everything that we need to live right. Period. Some of that can be derived and deduced for general precepts (as in how to program right: use open source Very Happy ). Other things that cannot be safely deduced are given to us directly. One thing that we cannot deduce safely is anything related to the responsibilities of government.

The most important thing that we need to understand is that we cannot list things that government cannot do and leave it at that. We must give an exclusive list. The Bible dictates and delineates exactly what government can do. It also gives things that government cannot do, but they are not the only things.

I will be giving a thesis on the purpose of government sometime when I get it finished. But be assured that there are no loopholes. Smile

I agree to the above conclusion. Thanks!

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:42 am

caleb wrote:

First of all, (and I'm surprised Jay didn't catch me on this) my argument used a very dangerous hermeneutical ploy. I built a doctrine off of one, and only one verse in the Bible. This is very dangerous to do, and one which usually leads to wrong conclusions or heresies. (Don't worry, I'm not condemning my past self as a heretic.)

Caleb,
I agree with Jay that you've shown great humility and maturity in admitting that your position was wrong. Good job. However, I still don't think that it was wrong. You mention that it is very dangerous to build an entire doctrine off of only one verse. This is true, but isn't the argument against government building roads also based on only one verse (in Romans 13, I believe)? I don't think the purpose of this verse is to outline all the duties of government, but merely to explain the basic reason why we should submit to government. To base an exclusive doctrine about the jobs government can to on only this verse is also very dangerous.

caleb wrote:

Daniel, this is proof by lack of evidence. (A logical fallacy.) Not only that, but your first line denies the full sufficiency of the Scriptures in everything. (I'm still trying to learn this.) God provided everything we need to run a government and know all of its duties. He clearly says that making roads is not restricted to the government body.


Again, it seems to me like the other side is also using proof by lack of evidence. There is no direct command in Scripture against government building roads, but the fact that there are no commands for the government to build roads is treated as an explicit command against the government building roads. This also seems very dangerous to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:44 am

caleb wrote:

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
I would also like to hear a little more about the full sufficiency of the Scriptures in everything. I believe that the Scriptures are God-inspired and completely true. I also believe they are fully sufficient for everything they were intended to be, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "everything". The Bible tells us everything we need to know for life and godliness, but it doesn't tell us everything we need to know to program computers. We can apply Biblical principles when programming computers (like diligence, etc.) but it's not going to tell us exactly how to do everything. That's why God gave us math, science, history, etc. So could you please help me understand what you mean by this phrase? (I know you don't think the Bible tells us exactly how to program computers, but where do you draw the line, and why?)

I don't have the time to address this right now, but when I do, I'll pm it to you since it is kind of off topic. It might be a few days though.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Could we start a topic on this in the "Align" room or the Conference room?

Jay, would it be okay if this conversation was tabled until we've discussed the above, since it seems to be an important premise to the conclusion?

In Christ,
Daniel

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:44 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:


Could we start a topic on this in the "Align" room or the Conference room?

Jay, would it be okay if this conversation was tabled until we've discussed the above, since it seems to be an important premise to the conclusion?

In Christ,
Daniel

I started a thread in the Align room if that's OK Jay. If not, you or I can delete it.

-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:54 pm

Thanks, Caleb.

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:55 am

Dr. H,

The Bible clearly dictates in at least two places the exact, exclusive functions of government. It says that government does two things: punishes crime, and gives praise to those who work righteousness. It does not say that these are two things that it can do. It defines government by its doing only those two things. It is impossible for it to list all the things that government cannot do: it would be ridiculous! It cannot even come close to listing representative sins. Government is only to do what it is told to do: nothing else. Otherwise it is completely open and all kinds of things will go wrong.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:03 pm

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Dr. H,

The Bible clearly dictates in at least two places the exact, exclusive functions of government. It says that government does two things: punishes crime, and gives praise to those who work righteousness. It does not say that these are two things that it can do. It defines government by its doing only those two things. It is impossible for it to list all the things that government cannot do: it would be ridiculous! It cannot even come close to listing representative sins. Government is only to do what it is told to do: nothing else. Otherwise it is completely open and all kinds of things will go wrong.

Could you give me the references for those places?
Thanks.

In Christ,
Daniel.

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PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:08 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Dr. H,

The Bible clearly dictates in at least two places the exact, exclusive functions of government. It says that government does two things: punishes crime, and gives praise to those who work righteousness. It does not say that these are two things that it can do. It defines government by its doing only those two things. It is impossible for it to list all the things that government cannot do: it would be ridiculous! It cannot even come close to listing representative sins. Government is only to do what it is told to do: nothing else. Otherwise it is completely open and all kinds of things will go wrong.

Could you give me the references for those places?
Thanks.

In Christ,
Daniel.

I am working on a thesis, clearly establishing their correct interpretation. It will take a bit, as I am busy with other things too. But their references are 1 Peter 2:13-14 & Romans 13. What they say is also upheld everywhere else in Scripture as well.

I would like to rephrase our current question to help get us on track:

Is it righteous for anyone, including the government, to kill someone so that they can assist commerce or promote a public work?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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