Liberty's Light

A Christian forum dedicated to the discussion of how a nation based entirely off of biblical principles ought to be like. We believe that Righteousness Exalteth a Nation, and that God's righteous hand is necessary for the blessing of any nation.
 
HomeHome  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 Utilities

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
AuthorMessage
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:59 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Is it righteous for anyone, including the government, to kill someone so that they can assist commerce or promote a public work?

What?!?! Uh, NOOOoooo!!!

-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 24
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:43 am

Wow Caleb. Wink

I will agree with Caleb, that is not right Biblically or morally for anyone to kill another for the purpose of assiting their business.

In Christ,
Peter G.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr. Hipopótamo
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 131
Age : 23
Location : USA
Registration date : 11/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:51 pm

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Dr. H,

The Bible clearly dictates in at least two places the exact, exclusive functions of government. It says that government does two things: punishes crime, and gives praise to those who work righteousness. It does not say that these are two things that it can do. It defines government by its doing only those two things. It is impossible for it to list all the things that government cannot do: it would be ridiculous! It cannot even come close to listing representative sins. Government is only to do what it is told to do: nothing else. Otherwise it is completely open and all kinds of things will go wrong.



Jay,
Thanks for the references. I looked them up, and it seems to me that they were both written to Christians about government, and not written to government as a complete outline of their duties (although they can be used for reference). Here are my comments on each one individually:


Romans 13

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

The important thing here is to look at context. This is the place in Romans where he is briefly covering several different aspects of the Christian life, and encouraging believers in how they are to live in view of God's mercy. In a more immediate context, this portion of the letter is not written to government workers about what they should do, or even to Christians about what the government should do. It is written to Christians about what Christians should do, and that is to submit to the governing authorities. It tells Christians not to resist authority, and this is where it mentions that the government punishes evil and praises good, using this as a point to show that those who do good have nothing to fear from the government. I don't see anything here that indicates that this is an exclusive command for everything that government should do.

1 Peter 2: 11-17
11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

15For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

16As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

17Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

This passage, like the other, is addressed to Christians, and not to the government, and couched in the middle of a laying out of several Christian responsibilities and exhortments. Also, verse fourteen is about governors, and not the whole government. So I don’t think we can apply it to everyone in government. It’s only talking about the king sending the governors, not about God sending the government. If we take verse fourteen to be an exclusive job description for governors, then it would be an inconsistancy not to take verse thirteen as a job description for the king.

It seems like your main argument for your that these are exclusive lists is that it would be impossible to list everything the government can’t do. (Am I correct here?) But why would it be impossible for the Bible to list everything the government can’t do? The government is bound by the same laws that the rest of us are, except that they have the responsibility of oversight and the right to punish criminals. The Bible lists everything we can’t do (do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, etc.) There is no exclusive list in the Bible of things that we can do, so why should there have to be one for government?
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:


I would like to rephrase our current question to help get us on track:

Is it righteous for anyone, including the government, to kill someone so that they can assist commerce or promote a public work?

Kill someone? Are you thinking that charging taxes to build roads will involve killing people? I’m really not sure how you arrived at this question. What exactly do you mean?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:25 am

Dr. H.,

Thank you for bringing that up. I will definitely include a response to that in my thesis.

As for my question, I will explain where it is going in a bit. right now I an establishing common ground: do you agree with it?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
Duchess Daisy
Moderator
Moderator


Female Number of posts : 20
Age : 27
Location : Florida
Registration date : 11/08/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:38 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:


I would like to rephrase our current question to help get us on track:

Is it righteous for anyone, including the government, to kill someone so that they can assist commerce or promote a public work?

I agree with the others; it is not righteous.

_________________
1 Thessalonians 5: 16-18
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://duchessdaisy.wordpress.com
Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 24
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:44 pm

Since several people agree with what you said Jay, (And I'm willing to bet Daniel will too. Wink) what are you trying to get at?

In Christ,
Peter G.

P.S. It seems to me that you are using an extreme example though for whatever you are trying to get at...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Duchess Daisy
Moderator
Moderator


Female Number of posts : 20
Age : 27
Location : Florida
Registration date : 11/08/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:53 pm

Peter G. wrote:
Since several people agree with what you said Jay, (And I'm willing to bet Daniel will too. Wink) what are you trying to get at?

In Christ,
Peter G.

P.S. It seems to me that you are using an extreme example though for whatever you are trying to get at...

Sometimes extreme examples are necessary... We'll have to wait and see what it is. Smile

_________________
1 Thessalonians 5: 16-18
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://duchessdaisy.wordpress.com
Dr. Hipopótamo
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 131
Age : 23
Location : USA
Registration date : 11/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:23 pm

Okay. I agree that it is not okay to kill innocent people in order to help the economy. However, I very much disagree that this is the current question. It seems like a straw man to me. Or maybe you meant that it is not so much a re-phrasing of the current question as it is a Socratic question, intended to lead to a discussion of the current question. If that is that case, then fire ahead Wink

_________________
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6: 12)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:17 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Okay. I agree that it is not okay to kill innocent people in order to help the economy. However, I very much disagree that this is the current question. It seems like a straw man to me. Or maybe you meant that it is not so much a re-phrasing of the current question as it is a Socratic question, intended to lead to a discussion of the current question. If that is that case, then fire ahead Wink

You are right, this is not technically a rephrasing of the current questions (it actually is in a way, but I won't push it). This is a Socratic question meant to help us get on common ground. So we will see how it goes.

Next question:

What is the difference between the government organizing and funding the managing of a utility and some other organization doing it?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 24
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:00 am

When the government is in control and organizes the roads, it starts to have control over the roads, it will cost them money, which in turn will come from the tax payerr's pockets. Plus, the government themselves will not be making the roads, they will have to hire someone to make the roads.

If a private organization was to make the roads, there would first be a compition in the prices to make roads, which will help the economy because in a compitition, the businesses will lower their prices to compete. Second, the people have a more direct say in who makes the roads, how much its going to cost, where the road will be built, and how much road will be built.

Therefore, based on the compare and contrasting of the government and a businesses being in control of making the roads, I think we can make a safe action in picking businesses over government. Is there anyone who disagrees? Did I miss anything? (I probably did... therefore, what did I miss?)

In Christ,
Peter G.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:43 pm

Your listed differences are valid (insofar as I see), and they make for a pretty good case. But there is an underlying difference that undergirds what you said that is much more important than those particulars. Why are those differences there?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 24
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:05 pm

What differences?

In Christ,
Peter G.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:29 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
What is the difference between the government organizing and funding the managing of a utility and some other organization doing it?

Not sure that I understand the question. My guess is that this is the answer:

The difference is two-fold. 1. Scripture- the Bible commands that the people are to manage and accomplish utilities; it does not command the government to organize or fund such projects. 2. Jurisdiction and purpose- Scripture clearly lays out the jurisdictions and purposes of the government. Organizing and funding utilities do not fall under either of these. Rather, the businesses are.

If that wasn't what you were looking for, could you please restate the question?

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:09 am

Since there seems to be some confusion regarding my second question, I will try to clarify it.

If there is no difference between the ways in which government would manage utilities, and the ways a private organization would manage utilities, then there would be no debate about it: there would be no reason at all for government to have to do it. But there are differences in how they do things: what are they?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 24
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:05 am

Sorry, I think you also got confused by my post. Did you ask me what other differences are there besides the one's me and Caleb posted?

In Christ,
Peter G.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:43 am

There is one foundational difference between the government and other, private organizations. What is that one, radical difference?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 24
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:06 am

Would it be the fact that God instituted only one of the two to make roads?

In Christ,
Peter G.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:10 pm

Efficiency? When the government sends five men to dig a hole, one does the digging and the other four watch him. The government can't get it done any other way. Private companies would do a more efficient, better quality job.

If that's the answer, I don't see the argument being all that good. The Bible says that the government shouldn't build roads. Case closed. If that's not the answer, I think you're going to have to give it to us.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr. Hipopótamo
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 131
Age : 23
Location : USA
Registration date : 11/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:42 pm

I think I see where you're going with this.
You're probably thinking the main difference is that the government has the power of force. Thus, to take money from other people to build roads would be stealing, whereas for a private organization to do it would be voluntary.

So if this is where you're going with this, then you actually bring the conversation more in the direction that I wanted to go with it. The main question is "Is it stealing for the government to build roads using tax money?"

The reason I am happy to discuss this is that there is a definite command in Scripture that says "Do not steal" while there is no definite command about roads (that is, unless it is stealing for the government to build roads).

Is this where you were going with it, or am I missing something?

In Christ,
Daniel

_________________
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6: 12)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:16 am

The esteemed Dr. got it. Smile Or at least part of it.

Government is force, as is very evident when you give it a moment of thought.

Given this fundamental quality intrinsic to government (which is absent in private corporations), could we conclude that government's unique power is in the restriction of the freedoms and liberties of the people?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 24
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:03 am

Okay, I think I see where you are going with it. (lets check shall we? Smile)

Okay, you are saying (and I agree) that the government is a force. And when someone is forced to do something, it infringes on that persons rights and liberties because you are not giving them a choice. Unlike with businesses, you are choosen, as well as you "volunteer" for the job. Lets try and put this is more easier logic.

If Government is force,
and force takes away rights and freedoms,
Therefore government cannot be allowed to buld roads.

And also,

If businesses is "volunteering work",
and "volunteer work" does not infinge (in fact it encourages) on peoples rights and liberties,
Therefore, businesses are the ones to build roads.

Based on transitional thinking/logic, that is what I came up with. I think this is what you are implying Jay. (If it isn't, pease let me know.) Does anyone disagree with the logic?

In Christ,
Peter G.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:21 am

You are going in the right direction, but you are missing a few steps. Let's wait until the others catch up. Smile

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:39 am

Peter G. wrote:
If Government is force,
and force takes away rights and freedoms,
Therefore government cannot be allowed to buld roads.


The government can use force, but only in cases of crime. It must take away, at least temporarily, the rights and freedoms of criminals.

Peter G. wrote:
And also,

If businesses is "volunteering work",
and "volunteer work" does not infinge (in fact it encourages) on peoples rights and liberties,
Therefore, businesses are the ones to build roads.


The logic is good, however, I think that we have already found that the Bible covers this issue directly and shows us that governments shouldn't be in charge of building roads. I'm not in any way opposed to logic, but, in this case, I find it kind of unnecessary. But, continue on Jay; I'm sure you have good reason.

-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Peter G.
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 209
Age : 24
Location : Where ever a debate is, I'm in the midst
Registration date : 09/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:09 pm

Caleb,

I think you missed my point. (As well as Jay's to some extent) What I was trying to show was that IF the government was to make roads, they would be exersising their power (force) and make the roads by MAKING people/citizens make the roads. Therefore, if the government was to be in control of making the roads, they would be taking away the people's, who they hire, rights and liberties away.

Also, I am only posting that logic based on what I gleaned from what Jay is trying to say so far. (even though I am missing steps) He said that I got most of what he was saying, but not all of it. So three things.

First, he agrees with me.

Second, there is more.

Third, there are more steps to what I already proposed.

Hope this clearified things. Very Happy

In Christ,
Peter G.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr. Hipopótamo
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 131
Age : 23
Location : USA
Registration date : 11/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Utilities   Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:26 pm

I'm not sure I would only say that government is force, or that its unique quality is the power to restrict liberty. Government is force when necessary, but it is also organization, authority, protection, etc. So I think the question we really need to address is:
Is it a sin (i.e. a violation of the commandment not to steal) for the government to build roads?
I would like to have a discussion of this question because if it is stealing, then of course the government should not do it, but if it is not stealing, then we can probably conclude that the government is permitted, but not commanded, to build roads, and we can discuss the rest in LL2.
So are we ready to move into a discussion of the stealing issue now?
In Christ,
Daniel

_________________
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6: 12)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Utilities   

Back to top Go down
 
Utilities
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 3 of 6Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Liberty's Light :: Biblical Government :: Discussions-
Jump to: