Liberty's Light

A Christian forum dedicated to the discussion of how a nation based entirely off of biblical principles ought to be like. We believe that Righteousness Exalteth a Nation, and that God's righteous hand is necessary for the blessing of any nation.
 
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention   Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:47 am

caleb wrote:

One rebuttal to a point made here that may be off topic. The Duggar family is a family with 18 kids. They have lived debt free for probably 20 years now. In that time they have bought houses, property, and large commercial equipment outright without going into debt. So it is very possible, even with 18 kids and an average income. They have also started up a couple of businesses without going into debt.

Besides that, I do see both of you and Jay's point. It is strong. I'm still having a hard time conceding on this issue though. Could we at least require that the government not go into debt or charge interest for fees? Or is that not good either?

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Caleb,

You are right that it is utterly possible to live debt free. My own family is an example - we moved to Ireland debt free! So it is possible, but shouldn't be required, I think.

Government debt can actually be considered a crime. It is in fact one of the 'invisible' modes of taxation. Yes, I agree that it would definitely be good to limit the government on this. It is each person's choice about how they ought to view debt, and we are deciding for the government: no debt!

But that is more in line with Liberty's Light 2, so we will limit ourselves to stating that government cannot prevent something that is not a crime.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention   Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:12 am

One last thought. If we define crime as including an action that threatens someone's life, liberty, or property, (which I think we should) we may be able to say that debt is a crime. After all, I'm not really paying you money, but only promising to pay it. However, down the road, I can back out and file bankruptcy or just amass so much debt that I'll never pay it off. The one I owe looses property and to a small extent maybe even liberty. By going into debt, I'm not actually causing you to loose your property (i.e. money) but I am threatening to do so by the option of bankruptcy or never being able to pay it off. So in that sense debt is a crime. In which case, it wouldn't be preventing something that isn't a crime. So I agree with your conclusion, if it can mean that debt is prevented.

I just don't want to repeat the mess that we're in now. History repeats itself. Look at the disaster that has resulted by allowing debt. People and companies are loosing property and liberty everywhere. If the government had prevented debt, we probably wouldn't be where we are now. Again, this kind of prevention is different from the other preventions in that it doesn't end up endangering regular civilians.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention   Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:24 am

caleb wrote:
One last thought. If we define crime as including an action that threatens someone's life, liberty, or property, (which I think we should) we may be able to say that debt is a crime. After all, I'm not really paying you money, but only promising to pay it. However, down the road, I can back out and file bankruptcy or just amass so much debt that I'll never pay it off. The one I owe looses property and to a small extent maybe even liberty. By going into debt, I'm not actually causing you to loose your property (i.e. money) but I am threatening to do so by the option of bankruptcy or never being able to pay it off. So in that sense debt is a crime. In which case, it wouldn't be preventing something that isn't a crime. So I agree with your conclusion, if it can mean that debt is prevented.

I just don't want to repeat the mess that we're in now. History repeats itself. Look at the disaster that has resulted by allowing debt. People and companies are loosing property and liberty everywhere. If the government had prevented debt, we probably wouldn't be where we are now. Again, this kind of prevention is different from the other preventions in that it doesn't end up endangering regular civilians.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

That all does depend on our definition of crime. We will probably have a thread for it to discuss after we define crime.

But in any case, prevention of a non-crime by a law that affects non-criminals is wrong. Thus our conclusion:

Prevention, in which everyone is restricted from doing something in the hopes that it prevents crimes, is not just and is outside the government's jurisdiction. The government can only punish criminals who have been proven as to having committed a crime. See definition on crime for clarification.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention   Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:22 am

I think I can agree.
-Caleb
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Dr. HipopĆ³tamo
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention   Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:01 pm

I could probably agree with that conclusion, as long as we're clear that there are certain times when, due to developing technologies, rules must be made in order to keep people safe (e.g. traffic regulations, and possibly airplane security, and things like that).

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PostSubject: Re: Prevention   Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:31 pm

Here's a little discussion that I had with myself on the subject of arms control.
I guess both sides are devil's advocates until the last two comments.

Evil or Very Mad I don't mind having guns available to everyone, but the thought of someone driving his tank around downtown makes me a little nervous. If he has road rage, a lot of people are in big trouble. Maybe it should be illegal. Keep in mind that the Bible (which we base our principles for government off of) was written when the biggest weapon available was a flaming arrow.

Evil or Very Mad One reason the constitution gave us the right to bear arms was for protection against oppressive government, so we should be able to have at least what they have.

Evil or Very Mad The constitution isn't the Bible, and maybe if we have enough restraints to government's power, this won't be necessary.

Evil or Very Mad Any government can change and become corrupt (see how much the constitution is ignored today), so there's never a guarantee that the government won't be oppressive.

Evil or Very Mad On the other hand, is it right to revolt against a government, even if it is oppressive?

Evil or Very Mad It's not wrong, and even if it is, there's a difference between revolting and using self-defence when the government is threatening you.

Evil or Very Mad If you do self-defence with a tank, it is basically a revolt.

Evil or Very Mad No it's not.

Evil or Very Mad Yes it is. And even if it's not, we don't want crazy, half-drunk, trigger-happy rednecks driving around in loaded tanks. I can just see my co-worker who hates me parking one across the parking lot and having it "accidentally" firing it at my brand-new Lotus.

Evil or Very Mad You're stereotyping, and you don't have a co-worker who hates you or a Lotus.

Evil or Very Mad True, but some people do.


Smile What if we allow tanks, but we restrict it so that they can not be driven in normal traffic or except in extreme circumstances.

Rolling Eyes Maybe we could try that. Let's see what everyone else on this forum thinks.

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Duchess Daisy
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention   Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:43 am

Jumping in a little late... but here are my thoughts. Smile

How can government prevent crime?

Like you all have been saying, by punishing crimes that are committed. I would also like to add something my dad brought up when I asked about this. The crime preventing action of punishment is greatly increased by public punishment. (i.e. Like stocks) Puplic humiliation has a powerful effect.

Is it its responsibility to do so outside of punishing it?

No. In the instance of gun control, it only makes the people more vulnerable because criminals will get the weapons.

So, to sum it all up, I agree with this conclusion.

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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention   Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:46 am

Duchess Daisy wrote:
The crime preventing action of punishment is greatly increased by public punishment. (i.e. Like stocks) Public humiliation has a powerful effect.

That is why God had the whole congregation stone a person condemned to death. It makes a huge difference. Amen! Smile

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
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