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 KJV, please be Socratic

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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: KJV, please be Socratic   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:01 pm

Greetings,

It did not come as any surprise to me when the first post anyone did on the Specific exegetical principles thread was one on the KJV hot topic. I do prefer the KJV, for a very many good reasons.

I want to make it clear from the first, however, that I am not one of those who believe that you are horribly sinning or are not saved if you do not use the KJV exclusively. I have read out of other versions, and even done side-by-side studies with them. I have found the KJV to be my choice above all by far. I like it.

There is more to the issue than just what version I like, however. I also hold to the KJV for many other, more scholarly and biblical reasons.

I do not condemn others who do not accept my views, and it was with reluctance that I even started this thread. I did not, and do not, want this conversation to be divisive and full of strife. If someone seems to come across as offensive, I humbly ask that we look for how we might have misunderstood them, instead of getting defensive. Please, always avoid the defensive position: it blocks learning and good communication.

I will most likely not kick you out of the forum if you decide to continue using whatever version you already are using. Smile I also do not want to make you go against your parent's beliefs. In all stages of the discussion, check with them and ask for their guidance.

Why do I start this thread in my forum at all? What does it have to do with biblical government? Well, since our whole premise is that we are basing our conclusions solely off of the Bible, I felt that, for the following reasons, we ought to discuss this and at least come to an understanding about it, if not a unified conclusion.

  1. If there is a possibility, which I think there is, that one version might be more truly God's Word than the others, then we ought to use it to be able to more fully understand exactly what God wants us to know.
  2. If we are divided about this issue, and all are using different versions, it might give occasion for our attackers to question our basis (you claim to base all off of the Bible, yet you all use different Bibles, etc.).
  3. It would help in communicating our biblical principles if we all had one standard Bible version.


You might disagree with those reasons, but I was simply explaining my reasoning in starting the thread.

Basically what the scope of this thread is this: open-ended discussion of the pros and cons of the KJV over other versions to the end of finding out whether it would be best if we used it as our standard version for our forum.

I hope and pray that we will all be able to learn form this discussion.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:41 pm

Jonathan wrote:
Why do you prefer the King James Version? It has several problems:

1.) I have heard that King James instructed his translators to translate words certain ways in order to support his version of religion. (I'm not sure if this is true or not)
2.) It uses the Textus Receptus, which is not as accurate as many more recently discovered Greek texts.
3.) It is written in an older form of English which is not as easily understood. (this is definitely not as important, but is still a factor in exegesis.)

See the link below for more information.


The debate over the King James Version

I am also reading a book called The Text of The New Testament by Bruce M. Metzger and Bart D. Ehrman. It is very interesting and instructive if you want to learn more about New Testament textual criticism.

One last point, while I haven't read the King James very much at all, I have heard that it is very well-written style-wise, which is a good thing about it.
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_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:41 pm

BeccaMc wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:

King James Version is highly preferred. No offense to those who don't use it though.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser
No problem for me! Our family uses the King James Version, so I've grown up with it and am used to it.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:43 pm

Jonathan and Rebecca,

I quoted your posts in the other thread and put them in here, since they pertain to this topic
more. Smile

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Jonathan S.
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:56 pm

Jonathan Wrote
Quote :
Why do you prefer the King James Version? It has several problems:

I want to apologize for my language here Embarassed. I didn't read through it before I sent it, and it might have come across as judgmental. I did not mean it that way, but I tend to be too abrupt. Sorry.

What I meant is: Why do you prefer the KJV? Based on some studying I have done, it seems to have several problems, but I could be wrong. What I see as problems are:...

Thanks for being gracious. It's nice to be able to make mistakes in an area where people will overlook them.

In Christ,

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For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power and love and discipline. --2 Tim 1:7
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:02 am

Jonathan,

No problem, no offense, good job! I will be posting on why my family uses the KJV pretty soon, but I just wanted to acknowledge your post. I hope that I didn't come across as defensive at all, either, in starting this thread. confused Smile Seriously, though, I was waiting for it to come up somewhere, and I figured that it would be best to deal with it in a separate thread, rather than have it distract us on a more important one.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:21 am

Greetings,

To get this discussion of to a good start and on a good foot, I decided to post an historically accurate summary of the creation of the KJV. There are a lot of myths about its creation which are prevalent, and I hope that this will help. This is an historically accurate and trustworthy account. It is based off a similar account in the book “Which Version Is The Bible?” by Floyd Nolen Jones.

My father is a remarkable man for research, and I continually thank the Lord his tireless efforts to find the truth about a multitude of issues from a biblical perspective. He has read many many books on the KJV issue, and he named Which Version Is The Bible as the best by far.

There is a ton of things that could be covered in a discussion on the trustworthiness of the KJV, and whole books have been written on the subject from several viewpoints. So this is simply an overview of a summary.

King James did not initiate the idea of a new translation at all. It was suggested by Dr. John Reynolds (Rainolds). Reynolds was the puritan president of the Corpus Christi College at Oxford. In 1604 he suggested to King James that a new translation be made that all the people could love and use. James agreed. The project actually began when a thousand ministers petitioned the king for it. So it was an appeal of the church to the king that made the KJV, not a political decree.

The system of translation that was used has not been equaled or surpassed in any subsequent translation. The scrutiny, care, devotion, and knowledge brought to the task was extraordinary. The time was amazingly fortuitous as well, England being then as never before or since in a state of linguistic proficiency. The English language was at its prime, and knowledge and understanding of the Hebrew and Asiatic languages was phenomenal. The actual translators came from both Anglicans and Puritans, so neither “denomination” influenced the translation above the other. There was no pay for the work, which progressed for several painstaking years. There were 47 translators who were all absolute top experts. Over all was a spirit of devotion to the sacredness, inerrant nature, infallibility, importance, and preservation of the Word of God.

The system of checks and balances was phenomenal, and again, unsurpassed. The 47 translators were divided into six groups, three for the Old Testament, two for the New Testament, and one for the Apocrypha (yes, they translated the Apocrypha as well). They had several very important rules governing the process. The same piece of Scripture was translated by each man in the group. Afterward, they came together in the group and worked out the differences. Once a book was completed, it was sent to the other groups for review and critiquing. Two men from each group then formed a special committee to intricately examine the finished product. The meetings and reviews took another three years in addition to the three years of the actual translation. When all the books had been translated, there was another special committee appointed to review the whole product. Each Scripture was examined closely at least 14 times!

During the whole of the process, the work was published openly all over England, and comments and suggestions were welcomed. All of England aided in the translation, and there was no back room decisions or political influence. It was a completely open and above-board national effort. When it was published, there was no surprises, it had all been seen before. No one man had control over the phrasing of any part of it.

In the translation, the translators followed previous translations as far as they adhered to the original text. They ended up relying most upon the work of Tyndale, the man who had dedicated his life to the translation of the Bible for the common people and was martyred for his devotion to it. Blood was spilled in the cause of Christ in the translation of the KJV.

There were no revisions after the publication of the finished work. There were several editions to correct minor typesetting errors, fixing the font, typos, and things like that, since they were using handset Gutenburg presses. The translation was not amended afterwards at all. Some people have pointed to these new editions in which they claim that thousands of alterations were made (so why pick on them for doing it again? Etc.). Well, when they originally published it, they used Gothic typesetting, instead of Roman, which is quite different. Lowercase s's look like f's and etc. Changing that to Roman typeset equaled over 30,000 changes, which did not touch the actual translation. Other alterations of this sort were made as well, as well as correcting obvious errors in the typing that the translators noticed when they double-checked in the publishing.

As for the “thee's, thou's, and wherefore ye do thus's” people always complain about, they were actually put in there for a reason. They used that style of speaking because it fit with the original Greek and Hebrew grammar better and so rendered a closer translation. If you spend enough time reading it, you will begin to like it, trust me.

The KJV also is written in beautiful prose, which makes it extremely easy to memorize. But I am digressing from the history, which I think is actually finished for now. Questions are welcome on what I have said; there is more. I do not know everything, and so I cannot guarantee being able to answer all of them though.

Sorry for the long post, the next one will probably be on the Textus Receptus.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:00 pm

This is kind of on topic, then again, off topic. But I thought it would be worth while to post. The NIV version of the Bible is probably the worst of all the versions. Why? Because, if you were to check, there are approximetly over 40 verses missing! (If you want a list of the verses let me know, but it will take a while. Very Happy ) Therefore, that is one reason that the KJV is better, but not the best type of evidence. :P
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:39 pm

I actually noticed the missing verse deal in Bible quizzing this year! For whatever reason, Bible Quiz Fellowship (BQF) decided to do their Bible quizzing in the NIV. This year, the quiz portion is the book of Luke, and in chapter 17, verse 36 is gone, and in 23, verse 17 is gone. Someone said it was because the manuscripts that the NIV was taken from didn't have those verses in them. They still numbered the verses like the KJV and other translations, but simply left the number out where the verse wasn't. (If that makes sense confused ) Don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I heard.
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:45 pm

Peter G. wrote:
This is kind of on topic, then again, off topic. But I thought it would be worth while to post. The NIV version of the Bible is probably the worst of all the versions. Why? Because, if you were to check, there are approximetly over 40 verses missing! (If you want a list of the verses let me know, but it will take a while. Very Happy ) Therefore, that is one reason that the KJV is better, but not the best type of evidence. :P

Peter,
The missing verse thing is definitely important, but if you say that the NIV is missing verses, that automatically assumes that the KJV or other versions with those verses are right. In the studying I've been doing, it seems like the evidence is actually in favor of certain manuscripts without some of these verses.

Textual criticism study is the process of determining what the original was most likely to have been based on copies that have survived. It is used on all kinds of texts, not just the Bible. From what I have read on this topic, it seems like a family of texts called the "Alexandrian" family of texts are the most accurate, but not perfect. Modern biblical scholars are mostly agreed that a combination of various texts and text families works best.

The KJV was translated using only one family, the "Byzantine" texts. Of the many surviving copies of this family, (not all of which are identical) only six texts, comprising most of the New Testament, were used as a basis. I believe that the last several verses of Revelation were missing in these, so the person who compiled the Textus Receptus (the printed version of these six texts) translated that last page from the Latin Vulgate into Greek. That would mean that that section is not just one step away from the original writing, but at least two. From Greek to Latin to Greek.

A few disclaimers:
1.) I am only discussing the New Testament right now, because I know nothing at all about Hebrew or the Hebrew texts used, although I believe that they are mostly agreed upon.
2.) I am not trying to disparage the King James Version; from what I can tell, it is very accurately and literally translated. I am in favor of using any nearly literal translation of the Bible as a study Bible, the KJV included. However, I do disagree with any pronouncement that the KJV is superior until I can see enough evidence to back it up. It sounded like a few people were saying that it is, but if you weren't, I'd like to know. Misunderstandings are not good things. pale
3.) I am not an expert, I just happen to be reading about this right now, from biases sources (just like every other source out there), so I'm not sure that I'm right or that what I've read is right.

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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:57 pm

First off, great historical report on the KJV Bible, Jay (you beat me to posting it).

Secondly, I have read many different versions of the Bible in the past, mainly to decide which one I liked the best. Personally, I prefer NIV and NLV but that is completely my opinion. As to the missing verses in the NIV Bible, my Bible has them. In mine, it says "side note" and then puts the missing verses there.

Thirdly, the KJV Bible I must say is beautifully written. It is the best piece of prose writing I have ever read and the words have more of a easy, relaxing flow to them than some of the modern versions. While it may not matter all that much, I want to throw out there that the KJV Bible was the first major English translation. There were a few other English translations but none that even measured up the time and accracy put into this Bible. Therefore, the KJV Bible became almost a standard in churches of that time; a tradition that is still carried out in many of England's churches and even American churches today.

However, whether or not we choose to read the KJV, the NIV, or the NLV, it all comes down to one point. The Bible, no matter what form or language it is in, is and always will be God's Word. God's Spirit moves within the pages of any version of the Bible; He guides our hearts and our minds in the scripture. I don't believe that it matters in which shape or form the words are in on the paper but rather the deeper meaning behind them. The Bible would be nothing but another book on the shelf if it weren't for God in someway "dwelling in the pages". This is not meant to sound harsh or condescending but rather a friendly reminder that the answers are not found in the words themselves.

All in all, I am not in anyway against using the KJV Bible as the standard for this forum. Am I completely for reading it for my own study time? No. But I see no harm in using this version as the main reference for this forum.

In Christ,
Hannah

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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:32 am

Greetings,

From what I can see, the question comes down to the superiority or inferiority of the Textus Receptus (or "Received Text"). The following article by Henry Morris Ph.D. might serve to clear the waters over this issue. There is more that can be said and more evidence that can be brought to the plate, but I hope that his explanation will be sufficient (and thus saving me some time!).

Follow this link to the article: Should Creationists Abandon The King James Version?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:55 am

Thank you Jay. That was a very good article. I have read several that were much less scholarly and more derogatory while trying to find out what some believe is better about the KJV. I have been led to the conclusion that the KJV is likely better in the Old Testament, but it still seems that the Textus Receptus was not accurate enough. I did not know that the Westcott-Hort text was compiled by unbelievers, but I think that God can use unbelievers to fulfill His will. I am willing to put my posts from the Bible in the King James Version (which I'll have to get online; I don't think my family has one), but for now I'll do my studying in the ESV (a revision of the RSV) and hopefully the original Greek when I learn it.

Hannah Marie wrote:
All in all, I am not in anyway against using the KJV Bible as the standard for this forum. Am I completely for reading it for my own study time? No. But I see no harm in using this version as the main reference for this forum.

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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:51 pm

Greetings,

That is fine. Accessing the KJV online is extremely easy, since it isn't copyrighted. It is even not too difficult to procure at any Christian bookstore. When you eliminate the commentaries. cross-references, and etceteras, they can be quite cheap. It is well worth acquiring one. (if anybody is curious as to why I do not use commentaries or cross-references rarely if at all, just pm me Smile ).

The point about Westcott-Hort was, however, that they compiled the very manuscripts that had been deliberately altered to reflect the pagan and anti-Jesus heresies of some first century pagans. The two manuscripts that Westcott-Hort used were actually extant copies of some edited heretical Roman Catholic 'Bibles.' The differences between the Textus Receptus and their text are extremely numerous and in flagrant attack on the basic doctrines of Christianity.

I am not trying to attack you or your family in any way, far from it. I highly commend you for handling this discussion as you have. I trembled for fear lest this thread tear apart our unity, and it has assisted it. I just wanted to point that out.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: KJV, please be Socratic   Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:22 am

Conclusion:

On this forum, the standard version used for references and quoting is always to be the KJV. We want to use the same version so that we can be united in the use of our most important reference book.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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