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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: What is Life?   Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:40 pm

What is Life?

It is the responsibility of government to punish the taking of someone's life unjustly. Yet when does a person's life begin or end being life that is worthy of protection? Modern society claims that the lives of the unborn, very old, mentally ill, and etc. are not defensible. But is this biblical and true?

  • When does life begin?
  • When does life end?
  • What makes life valuable?


With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.


Last edited by Sir Emeth Mimetes on Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:54 pm

Hi, Jay.

When does life begin?
As soon as the egg is viable.

When does life end?
As soon as the human can't breath again forever.

What makes life valuable?
The fact that God made us, and created in His image. Also that once we kill someone, or something, that specific soul, will never be able to finish his or her work that God set out for them to do. (except when God takes their life because they did.)

When can it be justly taken?
It never can be justly taken, because who are we to judge? Matthew 7:1 says, "do not judge, or you too will be judged." We can never fully understand how to judge perfectly, that is God's responsibility.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:35 pm

When does life begin?
Life begins at conception.

When does life end?
It ends when the person has died.

What makes life valuable?
Just the fact the God created it makes it valuable.

When can it be justly taken?
I belive the only way you could justly take another life is if that person had intentionally taken the life of another. After all, if you steal something, you give it back. If you break the window, you replace it. If you paint graffiti on a building, you wash it off or paint back over it again. If you take someone's life, you can't restore it, and the only thing that could make it right would be to take the life of the killer.
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Leviticus 24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:12 pm

Becca, I agree with you, however, we need to be careful with how we approach that ground. We need to see if the Bible has any CLEAR instructions on how to deal with something, if there is no clear definition, then we need to either not kill him or her, or make sure that there is VERY GOOD reasons why you should kill someone. Does that make sense?
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:35 pm

When does life begin?

As Becca said, life begins at conception.

When does life end?

Technically, life never ends. Life on earth ends when the person is dead but life for every person will continue on into eternity.

What makes life valuable?

The simple fact that God Himself took the time to form our every feature in our mother's womb. And the wonderful knowledge that we are all covered with the fingerprints of God.

When can it be justly taken?

Never. Only God fully knows a person's heart. Jesus was murdered on the cross and yet the men who murdered Him were not killed but rather were given the opportunity to repent. God loves everyone on this earth and He wants every person to have the opportunity to repent of their sins before judgement day. How would we know if the person who us humans deems deserves to die is on the verge of repentence and we take that opportunity from them? It is not our place to judge humans, our flesh motives are not pure in anyway. Only God has the right to judge, only God has the right to let the devil take a person's life. Remember, God is good, He is gracious, He is forgiving, and He never kills His own creation. The only thing that God does is allow Satan to take a life. If God never takes a life, than we shouldn't either.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
If you kill someone, you would be breaking this commandment. Whether it was out of good intentions or not, it is still sin.

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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:11 pm

Greetings,

When does life begin?
Life begins and conception. This is true scientifically (the DNA is different, etc.), and biblically (Jer. 1:5, etc.).

When does life end?
My purpose for this question is to help us clarify this and similar situations: a person is living via life-support, and the doctor claims that the person is dead because "there is no brain-waves" and wants to remove the life-support. If the person is still alive, and he does, the doctor just killed him.

What makes life valuable?
We are created in God's image, bear a soul, and we all have a purpose beyond ourselves.

When can it be justly taken?
Like Rebecca said, when another life is taken. The original verse that institutes government states: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (Gen. 9:6). This gives to man the authority to execute justice on his fellow men. Although God only can judge men's hearts, it is government's explicit role to carry the sword, and not in vain (Rom. 13:3-5).

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:50 pm

Quote :
Like Rebecca said, when another life is taken. The original verse that institutes government states: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (Gen. 9:6). This gives to man the authority to execute justice on his fellow men. Although God only can judge men's hearts, it is government's explicit role to carry the sword, and not in vain (Rom. 13:3-5).

This is not the only time that Government is commanded to execute.

Some other examples:

Code:
Lev 20:3  And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name. Lev 20:4  And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
Lev 20:5  Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

Code:
Lev 20:16  And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


Code:
Exo 21:15  And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:38 am

Von,

When you posted, I realized that it might be better to try to determine what crimes would justify the government taking the criminal's life as punishment in another thread, so that it does not distract us from defining life. Would you mind starting a thread in the Queue Room on that? When it is its turn we will move it into the Discussion Room for discussion.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Dr. HipopĆ³tamo
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:42 pm

When does life begin?
Life begins and conception.

When does life end?
Physical life ends when only God can restore it. Lazerous was truly dead because only Jesus was able to bring him back to life. If a person's heart temporarily stops beating but can beat again if you thump it or shock it or whatever, I do not believe that person has truly died.

What makes life valuable?
All humans are created in the image of God and have eternal souls. Also, only God can create life (He created the first life, and life can now only come from life that He created). As it is not our place to give life, it is not our place to decide when to end it.

When can it be justly taken?

Only God has the right to decide when life should be ended. However, He has given us instructions about when we should take llife, but we will be discussing that later, as Sir Emeth Mimetes said.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:57 pm

When does life begin?

Psalm 139:13-15- "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

Jeremiah 1:5- "Therefore I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Life begins at conception. These verses demonstrate that God personally created and knew babies from the moment of conception. The Hebrew word for knew in the Jeremiah text means that the knower is actually involved in or with the one being known. This kind of knowledge goes beyond knowing of or about an inanimate object, but is a much more intimate term that is applied to living beings. The fact that God would sanctify (lit. set apart) Jeremiah before he came out of the womb also denotes that the unborn baby must have been alive. Why would God set apart a non-living thing to become a prophet to Israel, instead of waiting until it was alive before doing such?

When does life end?

Genesis 9:4- "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."

Leviticus 17:11a.- "For the life of the flesh is in the blood:"

Leviticus 17:14- "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

Deuteronomy 12:23- "Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh."

I agree with an earlier post that life never ends; there is an afterlife. However, given the context of the purpose of this post, I will chose to address life here on earth. The Bible clearly states in the aforementioned that the life of a person is in the blood. Keep in mind that these passages are instructing the Israelites to drain all of the blood out of an animal before eating it. God does not reveal exactly why He demands this. It could have been for sanitary reasons unbeknownst to the people at that time for example. However, I believe that the principle of life being in the blood can be carefully applied to when a person dies. I would venture to say that death occurs when the heart stops beating, since the heart is the organ that controls the flow and production of blood.

What makes life valuable?

Genesis 2:7- "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

Numbers 35:31- "Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death."

Job 33:4- "The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life."

1 Timothy 6:13a.- "I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things,"

I am interpreting this question to mean what makes human life valuable. Obviously my answer would be different for any other form of life. The fact that God is the creator, giver, and sustainer of life is reason enough to consider it valuable. In addition, the strict punishment for murder which is commanded by God also implies that He holds life to be valuable.

When can life be justly taken?

There are at least 18 crimes that God Himself commanded to be punished with death. For want of brevity, I have not listed them, however, if any of you would like the list with backup Scripture verses, I would be happy to furnish you with such. God also commands the slaughter of entire armies and people groups whom He allowed Israel to conquer. God takes His holiness and His commands seriously. All of the ten commandments except for the last one had the death penalty for anyone who broke it. God even allowed men to judge a situation and deem whether or not a person deserved the death penalty.

Numbers 35:30- "Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die."

Deuteronomy 17:6- "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death."

Deuteronomy 19:12-13- "Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee."

Like it or not, God commands that we judge those who are suspected of committing a crime, and put to death those who deserve the death penalty. Yes, there are crimes that must be punished with death. God commands such. But, this is only to be done with two or three witnesses, thus giving sufficient evidence for the criminal's guilt.

I would disagree with the application of Matthew 7:1 quoted above in regards to judging not, lest we be judged. I believe that the context of this verse is in reference to judging your own spiritual status (as far as whether or not you are saved.) I don't want to go too much off topic here, but if you would like me to further explain, I would be glad to. Secondly, I appreciate the concern shown in another post above in regards to running the risk of executing someone before they had the chance to repent and trust in Christ alone for salvation. However, I again would have to disagree based on my understanding of the Bible. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that God will save those whom He has already predetermined to save. Nothing we can do, including executing someone, can change this. Again, I appreciate the concern but respectfully disagree. I am also willing to give the Scripture verses that have lead me to this conclusion is anyone would like; but I want to try to keep from going too far off topic. Maybe on another post.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb


Last edited by caleb on Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:09 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Minor changes due to not being clear in when life ends and Scripture interpretation)
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:14 am

caleb wrote:
When does life begin?

Psalm 139:13-15- "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

Jeremiah 1:5- "Therefore I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Life begins at conception. These verses demonstrate that God personally created and knew babies from the moment of conception. The Hebrew word for knew in the Jeremiah text means that the knower is actually involved in or with the one being known. This kind of knowledge goes beyond knowing of or about an inanimate object, but is a much more intimate term that is applied to living beings. The fact that God would sanctify (lit. set apart) Jeremiah before he came out of the womb also denotes that the unborn baby must have been alive. Why would God set apart a non-living thing to become a prophet to Israel, instead of waiting until it was alive before doing such?

When does life end?

Genesis 9:4- "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."

Leviticus 17:11a.- "For the life of the flesh is in the blood:"

Leviticus 17:14- "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

Deuteronomy 12:23- "Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh."

The Bible clearly states here that the life of a person is in the blood. Keep in mind that these passages are instructing the Israelites to drain all of the blood out of an animal before eating it. God does not reveal exactly why He demands this. It could have been for sanitary reasons unbeknownst to the people at that time for example. However, I believe that the principle of life being in the blood can be carefully applied to when a person dies. I would venture to say that death occurs when the heart stops beating, since the heart is the organ that controls the flow and production of blood.

What makes life valuable?

Genesis 2:7- "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

Numbers 35:31- "Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death."

Job 33:4- "The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life."

1 Timothy 6:13a.- "I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things,"

I am interpreting this question to mean what makes human life valuable. Obviously my answer would be different for any other form of life. The fact that God is the creator, giver, and sustainer of life is reason enough to consider it valuable. In addition, the strict punishment for murder which is commanded by God also implies that He holds life to be valuable.

When can life be justly taken?

There are at least 18 crimes that God Himself commanded to be punished with death. For want of brevity, I have not listed them, however, if any of you would like the list with backup Scripture verses, I would be happy to furnish you with such. God also commands the slaughter of entire armies and people groups whom He allowed Israel to conquer. God takes His holiness and His commands seriously. All of the ten commandments except for the last one had the death penalty for anyone who broke it. God even allowed men to judge a situation and deem whether or not a person deserved the death penalty.

Numbers 35:30- "Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die."

Deuteronomy 17:6- "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death."

Deuteronomy 19:12-13- "Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee."

Like it or not, God commands that we judge those who are suspected of committing a crime, and put to death those who deserve the death penalty. Yes, there are crimes that must be punished with death. God commands such. But, this is only to be done with two or three witnesses, thus giving sufficient evidence for the criminal's guilt.

I would disagree with the application of Matthew 7:1 quoted above in regards to judging not, lest we be judged. I believe that the context of this verse is in reference to judging another person's spiritual status (as far as whether or not they are saved.) I don't want to go too much off topic here, but if you would like me to further explain, I would be glad to. Secondly, I appreciate the concern shown in another post above in regards to running the risk of executing someone before they had the chance to repent and trust in Christ alone for salvation. However, I again would have to disagree based on my understanding of the Bible. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that God will save those whom He has already predetermined to save. Nothing we can do, including executing someone, can change this. Again, I appreciate the concern but respectfully disagree. I am also willing to give the Scripture verses that have lead me to this conclusion is anyone would like; but I want to try to keep from going too far off topic. Maybe on another post.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

An excellent post, Caleb.

As a BLS (ie CPR) instructor I might take a bit of exception with your idea that the lack of beating of a heart = death.

Permission to repost this over on my blog?
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:19 am

Von,

I have thought about the ending of life, CPR, life being in the blood, and etc. for a long time. I have not been able to reach a conclusion. Because of the biblical difficulties with the brainwave absence indicating death, I have not followed that crowd. What do you believe with your biblical and emergency medical experience? I am eager to hear from you.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:47 pm

"When does life end?" was a very hard question to answer. I agree with an earlier post that life never ends; there is an afterlife. However, given the context of the purpose of this post, I chose to address life here on earth. Sorry I didn't clarify.

I do find it difficult to say that life ends when the heart stops beating because of modern medical abilities such as CPR. I have even heard of several instances were a person was declared dead, and then doctors were able to "bring them back" within a short amount of time. Obviously, God is in control of when a person truly dies, however, determining when they are actually dead is difficult to decide. Thank you for your critique. I am willing to adjust my stand on this issue of death= heart stops beating, if someone can bring another alternative with evidence defending it. I was a little hesitant with my conclusion based off of CPR and other such exceptions. Therefore, I am somewhat undecided on this issue. All ideas are welcome!!! Maybe it's a combination of brain wave, heart beat, and breath all coming to a stop.

You are welcome to post my article on the blog with the following requirements:
1. Only my first name (Caleb) listed as the author. 2. No other personal information posted. This includes, but is not limited to my last name, age, e-mail, etc. This is just something my parents want to be careful about. So, if you can do that, you are more than welcome to post the article on the blog. Thanks so much.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:40 pm

caleb wrote:
"When does life end?" was a very hard question to answer. I agree with an earlier post that life never ends; there is an afterlife. However, given the context of the purpose of this post, I chose to address life here on earth. Sorry I didn't clarify.

I do find it difficult to say that life ends when the heart stops beating because of modern medical abilities such as CPR. I have even heard of several instances were a person was declared dead, and then doctors were able to "bring them back" within a short amount of time. Obviously, God is in control of when a person truly dies, however, determining when they are actually dead is difficult to decide. Thank you for your critique. I am willing to adjust my stand on this issue of death= heart stops beating, if someone can bring another alternative with evidence defending it. I was a little hesitant with my conclusion based off of CPR and other such exceptions. Therefore, I am somewhat undecided on this issue. All ideas are welcome!!! Maybe it's a combination of brain wave, heart beat, and breath all coming to a stop.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
I suppose you could say, in that case, that life ends when the heart stops beating (the life blood stops flowing) and can not be made to start again. If the heart stops beating and all possible attempts to revive the person have failed, then the person is truly dead.
Just my two cents . . .
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:24 pm

caleb wrote:
"When does life end?" was a very hard question to answer. I agree with an earlier post that life never ends; there is an afterlife. However, given the context of the purpose of this post, I chose to address life here on earth. Sorry I didn't clarify.

I do find it difficult to say that life ends when the heart stops beating because of modern medical abilities such as CPR. I have even heard of several instances were a person was declared dead, and then doctors were able to "bring them back" within a short amount of time. Obviously, God is in control of when a person truly dies, however, determining when they are actually dead is difficult to decide. Thank you for your critique. I am willing to adjust my stand on this issue of death= heart stops beating, if someone can bring another alternative with evidence defending it. I was a little hesitant with my conclusion based off of CPR and other such exceptions. Therefore, I am somewhat undecided on this issue. All ideas are welcome!!! Maybe it's a combination of brain wave, heart beat, and breath all coming to a stop.

You are welcome to post my article on the blog with the following requirements:
1. Only my first name (Caleb) listed as the author. 2. No other personal information posted. This includes, but is not limited to my last name, age, e-mail, etc. This is just something my parents want to be careful about. So, if you can do that, you are more than welcome to post the article on the blog. Thanks so much.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

I believe that there are actually two issues here:

1) When life actually ends. This is a God question, and not within our perview.

2) When we, as fallible humans, should treat someone as dead. This is an issue, like so many others, where we need to operate with our knowledge and wisdom. The biggest difficulty here is the anti-life philosophy of so many in the medical field.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:50 pm

The only problem I can see with too much discussion on "when is a person really dead?" (and I'm not condemning anyone here), is that sooner or later, we could reach a conclusion such as this: "Since we as fallible humans can not decide when a person is truly dead beyond medical help, and since we will never know whether or not God will perform a miracle and raise them back to life, we should keep the person's heart beating and try to revive them until they are 130 and could not physically possibly live anyway."

I'm not in any way making fun of anyone, and if this post seems unnecessary or mocking, it can be removed. I'm just trying to say that there may be no satisfying answer to the question, and if we keep pushing it too far, we could end up getting ridiculous.

In Christ,
Rebecca
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:12 pm

BeccaMc wrote:
The only problem I can see with too much discussion on "when is a person really dead?" (and I'm not condemning anyone here), is that sooner or later, we could reach a conclusion such as this: "Since we as fallible humans can not decide when a person is truly dead beyond medical help, and since we will never know whether or not God will perform a miracle and raise them back to life, we should keep the person's heart beating and try to revive them until they are 130 and could not physically possibly live anyway."

I'm not in any way making fun of anyone, and if this post seems unnecessary or mocking, it can be removed. I'm just trying to say that there may be no satisfying answer to the question, and if we keep pushing it too far, we could end up getting ridiculous.

In Christ,
Rebecca

I'm not sure who you think you may have been making fun of, but if me, I missed it.

Medically speaking most people are not 'preservable', so the issue is a bit moot.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:45 pm

BeccaMc wrote:
The only problem I can see with too much discussion on "when is a person really dead?" (and I'm not condemning anyone here), is that sooner or later, we could reach a conclusion such as this: "Since we as fallible humans can not decide when a person is truly dead beyond medical help, and since we will never know whether or not God will perform a miracle and raise them back to life, we should keep the person's heart beating and try to revive them until they are 130 and could not physically possibly live anyway."

I'm not in any way making fun of anyone, and if this post seems unnecessary or mocking, it can be removed. I'm just trying to say that there may be no satisfying answer to the question, and if we keep pushing it too far, we could end up getting ridiculous.

In Christ,
Rebecca

I agree that it can sometimes be hard to decide when a person is truly "dead," but I don't think that means we should keep them on life support after they are obviously not coming back. It might be a good idea to start a topic in the queue about life support removal and when, if ever, is it OK. I might do that, or, if someone else wants to, go ahead.

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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:23 am

Greetings,

Von, you stated the case very well: we cannot know when a person's life ends like God can, but we need to know when to stop treating a person as alive.

Rebecca, I agree with you that it will be hard to come to a solid conclusion on this issue, but I believe that we need to try.

Caleb, I put the question of when a person is considered dead so that we would be able to avoid doctors claiming that quadriplegics and etc. are "dead" and so assist them in suicide or refuse to treat them and etc.

I think that we can continue discussing when life ends legally in this thread for now. I think that we could narrow the thread to be devoted to that, in fact. We have decided to talk about capitol punishment in another thread, and we all agree, I think, on why human life is important and when it starts. What do y'all think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:05 am

I agree that we all seem to be in agreement on when life begins and why it is valuable. So I think it would be good to narrow this thread down to when life ends legally. I like the early suggestion of death= when a person's heart stops beating and cannot be revived. However, I agree that this also brings up a whole new discussion of life support that might be good to determine in another thread.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:31 am

caleb wrote:
I agree that we all seem to be in agreement on when life begins and why it is valuable. So I think it would be good to narrow this thread down to when life ends legally. I like the early suggestion of death= when a person's heart stops beating and cannot be revived. However, I agree that this also brings up a whole new discussion of life support that might be good to determine in another thread.

Let's just discuss it in here, since it is pertinent to the topic.

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:03 pm

Calebs post posted at:

http://vonstakes.blogspot.com/2009/03/when-does-life-begin-by-caleb.html
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:42 pm

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

Von, you stated the case very well: we cannot know when a person's life ends like God can, but we need to know when to stop treating a person as alive.

Rebecca, I agree with you that it will be hard to come to a solid conclusion on this issue, but I believe that we need to try.

Caleb, I put the question of when a person is considered dead so that we would be able to avoid doctors claiming that quadriplegics and etc. are "dead" and so assist them in suicide or refuse to treat them and etc.

I think that we can continue discussing when life ends legally in this thread for now. I think that we could narrow the thread to be devoted to that, in fact. We have decided to talk about capitol punishment in another thread, and we all agree, I think, on why human life is important and when it starts. What do y'all think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Assuming by 'legally' you mean 'according to Gods law'.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:35 am

von wrote:
Assuming by 'legally' you mean 'according to Gods law'.

Von,

According to God's law as relating to the civil magistrate's jurisdiction. Right. Legally meaning when the civil magistrate should consider a person as dead.

I am thinking about deciding to take this discussion and pass it off to a research committee. The committee would go figure out what it needs to decide, then it would do the necessary biblical and medical research needed to come to a definite conclusion. They would also do research to find out if someone has already figured this out. The committee would be given a dedicated room on this forum. What do you all think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Life?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:32 am

I think this would be very helpful. Good idea.
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