Liberty's Light

A Christian forum dedicated to the discussion of how a nation based entirely off of biblical principles ought to be like. We believe that Righteousness Exalteth a Nation, and that God's righteous hand is necessary for the blessing of any nation.
 
HomeHome  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 Old Testament Law

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
AuthorMessage
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:25 am

caleb wrote:
von wrote:


God holds the highest office in every nation that has ever existed, or will exist.

No, He doesn't actually hold office as recognized by the people. He is overall ruler in an eternal sense, but not direct holder of office. Unless I'm mistaken, our president is Barack Obama, our vice president is Joe Biden, our secretary of state is Hillary Clinton, etc. None of these are God. (Thank goodness.) The people of America, or any other nation for that matter, do not recognize God as holding office.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

You are very mistaken.

God is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords... whether or not He is recognized as such.

Secondly, many of us do recognize His office... as did our founders.


And thirdly, we have discussed the situation in England, where they do actually acknowledge(however poorly) that it is God who Himself appoints the king.

Code:
Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Quote :
In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country,...
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
Hannah Marie
Moderator
Moderator


Female Number of posts : 99
Age : 24
Registration date : 15/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:36 am

Guys, we are not supposed to be discussing whether or not Israel was a theocracy on this thread. That's for the Forms of Government thread. Could we just keep this limited to the second half of the conversation, the one that is about the original posted topic of this thread please?

In Christ,
Hannah

_________________
If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
Back to top Go down
View user profile
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:41 am

Hannah Marie wrote:
Guys, we are not supposed to be discussing whether or not Israel was a theocracy on this thread. That's for the Forms of Government thread. Could we just keep this limited to the second half of the conversation, the one that is about the original posted topic of this thread please?

In Christ,
Hannah

HM,

Caleb believes (quite unjustifiably, but that is another question) that 'because' Israel was a theocracy, therefore the laws given to it should not apply to us.

So it is on topic, just tangentially.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
Hannah Marie
Moderator
Moderator


Female Number of posts : 99
Age : 24
Registration date : 15/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:47 am

von wrote:
Hannah Marie wrote:
Guys, we are not supposed to be discussing whether or not Israel was a theocracy on this thread. That's for the Forms of Government thread. Could we just keep this limited to the second half of the conversation, the one that is about the original posted topic of this thread please?

In Christ,
Hannah

HM,

Caleb believes (quite unjustifiably, but that is another question) that 'because' Israel was a theocracy, therefore the laws given to it should not apply to us.

So it is on topic, just tangentially.

Not quite. You're basically trying to decide on a definition of theocracy and that doesn't relate to whether or not the Old Testament Law is appliable.

_________________
If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
Back to top Go down
View user profile
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:56 am

Hannah Marie wrote:
von wrote:
Hannah Marie wrote:
Guys, we are not supposed to be discussing whether or not Israel was a theocracy on this thread. That's for the Forms of Government thread. Could we just keep this limited to the second half of the conversation, the one that is about the original posted topic of this thread please?

In Christ,
Hannah

HM,

Caleb believes (quite unjustifiably, but that is another question) that 'because' Israel was a theocracy, therefore the laws given to it should not apply to us.

So it is on topic, just tangentially.

Not quite. You're basically trying to decide on a definition of theocracy and that doesn't relate to whether or not the Old Testament Law is appliable.

Well, as I said a long time ago, whether or not Israel was at any point a theocracy is indeed irrelevant.

However Caleb thinks it has some relevance. He believes that Gods Holy and Perfect Law ended in its civil application upon the inaugaration of Saul.

Anyway, we can continue by PM if the discussion is offensive.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
Dr. Hipopótamo
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 131
Age : 23
Location : USA
Registration date : 11/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:06 pm

von wrote:
Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Thanks for that post, Jay. It was helpful.
God knows what laws are helpful, He knows what penalties are just and preventative, He knows what the boundaries of government should be. I believe that the Old Testament laws reflect His perfect knowledge, and that to the extent that we can, we should keep those laws.
There are, however, certain laws about morality (e.g. honor your father and your mother, do not commit adultery, do not take the Lord's name in vain, etc.) that were written for a God-fearing society. I'm not sure how these would apply to a nation that is not composed entirely of Christians. Is it the government's duty to enforce these laws today? At this point, I really don't know.

if you look at the law, you will see which of those laws were designed to be punished by the civil magistrate.

But are those laws designed to be punished by the civil magistrate today, or were they specifically for Israel's unique situation?

By the way, could we find a way to distinguish between the law, meaning all the rules God gave to Israel, and the law, meaning the laws that God told Israel's government to enforce? I don't know what words we could use, but it's a little confusing to use the same word for both.

_________________
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6: 12)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:41 am

Hannah Marie wrote:
Guys, we are not supposed to be discussing whether or not Israel was a theocracy on this thread. That's for the Forms of Government thread. Could we just keep this limited to the second half of the conversation, the one that is about the original posted topic of this thread please?

In Christ,
Hannah

Hannah,
Good observation. Thank you for trying to pull us back on topic. You're right, discussing whether or not Israel was a theocracy belongs in the Forms of Government thread. I'll refer any more discussion to that point over there. Thank you for noticing that.

As far as the OT laws that should be applied today in governments, I believe they should be only the horizontal crimes. What I mean by this is a crime of one man against another. Example: Murder, adultery, stealing, lying, etc. They should not include horizontal crimes which are crimes of one man against God. Example: idolatry, blasphemy, etc. These sins are punishable only by God, not the government.

I also believe that the government should not punish dishonor to parents. This sin falls under the disciplinary jurisdiction of God and the father of the family, not the government.

So basically, all OT and NT laws that violate a person's life, liberty, and/or property should be punished by the government.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:04 am

caleb wrote:
Hannah Marie wrote:
Guys, we are not supposed to be discussing whether or not Israel was a theocracy on this thread. That's for the Forms of Government thread. Could we just keep this limited to the second half of the conversation, the one that is about the original posted topic of this thread please?

In Christ,
Hannah

Hannah,
Good observation. Thank you for trying to pull us back on topic. You're right, discussing whether or not Israel was a theocracy belongs in the Forms of Government thread. I'll refer any more discussion to that point over there. Thank you for noticing that.

As far as the OT laws that should be applied today in governments, I believe they should be only the horizontal crimes. What I mean by this is a crime of one man against another. Example: Murder, adultery, stealing, lying, etc. They should not include horizontal crimes which are crimes of one man against God. Example: idolatry, blasphemy, etc. These sins are punishable only by God, not the government.

I also believe that the government should not punish dishonor to parents. This sin falls under the disciplinary jurisdiction of God and the father of the family, not the government.

So basically, all OT and NT laws that violate a person's life, liberty, and/or property should be punished by the government.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

And, Caleb, do you have any Scriptural support at all for your 'I believe's?

I believe (and can provide ample Scriptural support) that Gods perfect law was and is... perfect; and represents the standard by which all other civil judgments should and will be judged.

I believe that we will be judged ourselves for adding to, or subtracting from, Gods perfect law.

I believe that we have to discern which of Gods laws changed in their application due to the coming of Christ: ie laws designed to point forward to Christ (the sacrificial system) have been fulfilled, and we now have laws (communion) designed to point backwards to the work of Christ.

I believe that we also have to discern which laws apply to which people. The NT law concerning headcoverings, for example, is specifically designed to apply one way to women, and the opposite way to men. Thus there are laws which were and are meant for the nation of Israel, that are not intended for other nations (circumcision, for example).

I believe that we do have to know the whole law in order to understand how the various points fit together. We do not just run around and execute adulterers willy nilly, for example. We need to read an apply the process by which that was done: requiring two witnesses, both parties stoned, witnesses subject to the punishment they seek if they bring false witness, for example.

(Scripture available upon need and request. Hopefully most of my readers already know these Scriptures.)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:36 am

I agree with most of your points, however, knowing your beliefs I will need to do some further research in this area. I'll post my results latter.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:34 am

von wrote:
I believe (and can provide ample Scriptural support) that Gods perfect law was and is... perfect; and represents the standard by which all other civil judgments should and will be judged.

I believe that we will be judged ourselves for adding to, or subtracting from, Gods perfect law.

I believe that we have to discern which of Gods laws changed in their application due to the coming of Christ: ie laws designed to point forward to Christ (the sacrificial system) have been fulfilled, and we now have laws (communion) designed to point backwards to the work of Christ.

I believe that we also have to discern which laws apply to which people. The NT law concerning headcoverings, for example, is specifically designed to apply one way to women, and the opposite way to men. Thus there are laws which were and are meant for the nation of Israel, that are not intended for other nations (circumcision, for example).

I believe that we do have to know the whole law in order to understand how the various points fit together. We do not just run around and execute adulterers willy nilly, for example. We need to read an apply the process by which that was done: requiring two witnesses, both parties stoned, witnesses subject to the punishment they seek if they bring false witness, for example.

(Scripture available upon need and request. Hopefully most of my readers already know these Scriptures.)

I agree with what you state as your beliefs in this post as stated. Where we probably differ most is in your statement "I believe that we also have to discern which laws apply to which people. The NT law concerning headcoverings, for example, is specifically designed to apply one way to women, and the opposite way to men. Thus there are laws which were and are meant for the nation of Israel, that are not intended for other nations (circumcision, for example)." I completely agree with this, but we will probably come to different conclusions regarding what laws were only meant for the nation of Israel. This is why, like Caleb, I will withhold any further statements of my biblical (I hope) beliefs on this subject until I have researched them deeper.

Thank you, Mr. Ohlman, for challenging us to go directly to the Word of God, and be very sure of our interpretation's solidity. Your presence on this forum, even though we might disagree on some things, ensures that we will not slip by with faulty hermeneutics. Thank you.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:42 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
von wrote:
I believe (and can provide ample Scriptural support) that Gods perfect law was and is... perfect; and represents the standard by which all other civil judgments should and will be judged.

I believe that we will be judged ourselves for adding to, or subtracting from, Gods perfect law.

I believe that we have to discern which of Gods laws changed in their application due to the coming of Christ: ie laws designed to point forward to Christ (the sacrificial system) have been fulfilled, and we now have laws (communion) designed to point backwards to the work of Christ.

I believe that we also have to discern which laws apply to which people. The NT law concerning headcoverings, for example, is specifically designed to apply one way to women, and the opposite way to men. Thus there are laws which were and are meant for the nation of Israel, that are not intended for other nations (circumcision, for example).

I believe that we do have to know the whole law in order to understand how the various points fit together. We do not just run around and execute adulterers willy nilly, for example. We need to read an apply the process by which that was done: requiring two witnesses, both parties stoned, witnesses subject to the punishment they seek if they bring false witness, for example.

(Scripture available upon need and request. Hopefully most of my readers already know these Scriptures.)

I agree with what you state as your beliefs in this post as stated. Where we probably differ most is in your statement "I believe that we also have to discern which laws apply to which people. The NT law concerning headcoverings, for example, is specifically designed to apply one way to women, and the opposite way to men. Thus there are laws which were and are meant for the nation of Israel, that are not intended for other nations (circumcision, for example)." I completely agree with this, but we will probably come to different conclusions regarding what laws were only meant for the nation of Israel. This is why, like Caleb, I will withhold any further statements of my biblical (I hope) beliefs on this subject until I have researched them deeper.

Thank you, Mr. Ohlman, for challenging us to go directly to the Word of God, and be very sure of our interpretation's solidity. Your presence on this forum, even though we might disagree on some things, ensures that we will not slip by with faulty hermeneutics. Thank you.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Hey, if someone wants to pick a law, even a civil law, ans show from Scripture where it is only for the nation of Israel, more power to them. But hasn't happened so far.
And they can't just say 'not this'; but point to what the law of God would have the Gentiles do. Is circumcision forbidden? Just no commanded? Still a good idea for health reasons? Does it apply to us now we are 'true Israel'???
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:38 am

Greetings,

In an effort to continue this discussion in a kind and intelligent manner without getting embroiled in another debate, I am posting this statement for discussion.

We are in this thread to discuss the OT law, and its applicability to us and to civil government nowadays. I will state the case and then we will discuss.

First, I need to define two terms that I will be using for clarification. These two terms are not used in the Bible in this way, but the concepts are in the Bible. I have summed the two concepts up into two words for ease of use in this forum. If you don't like them, that's fine, but I don't want to get sidetracked into a semantics debate on it. That is what I am using here.

Vertical Sin: A sin which is primarily against God. A sin that is acted or thought of can be vertical in this sense. All sins are vertical in a way, all are offenses against God, but this is not what I mean by a vertical sin. A vertical sin is directly against God in that it is directed against God. Blasphemy, idolatry, etc. are vertical sins.

Horizontal Sin: A sin which is primarily against man. Horizontal sins are indirectly offenses against God, but are not classified as vertical, as they are not directly against God. Theft, murder, kidnapping, adultery, etc. are horizontal sins.

All sins fall into either one or the other or both of these classes.

Now we will look at the OT law. I will divide them up into sections for ease of study. There are other ways to divide them, of course, but this is how I am doing it for this dscussion.

There is a certain section of laws that we all agree are not civil crimes (at least not anymore): the ceremonial laws such as sacrifices, etc. These were all vertical sins, but they are not sins anymore (it is not a crime to where polyester/cotton blend, eat pig, or to not circumcise).

There is a certain section of laws that we all agree are civil crimes then and now. These are all horizontal sins that are injurious to another person's life (murder, etc.), liberty (kidnapping, etc.) property (stealing, etc.), and also breaches of contract (adultery, etc.). These are obvious crimes that need to be punished.

There is a certain section of laws over which we are divided as to whether they ought to be civil crimes or not nowadays. These are all vertical sins. They are still vertical sins, but some of us believe that they are not crimes anymore. These include blasphemy, idolatry, witchcraft, etc.

There are three laws left (that makes it easy!). They are all in a special category. The other ones we can deal with later, but I would like to deal with these three since there are so few, and it will look like we are accomplishing something. Smile

1)Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him.
Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

2)Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

3)Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that,] when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deuteronomy 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Deuteronomy 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deuteronomy 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

They are all capitol crimes, extensions of the command: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. These are definitely sins, but are they crimes any more? Should we put them in the vertical sin slot, or the horizontal sin slot? They are horizontal, but could it possibly be that their (seemingly to some people) harsh punishment is because they include a vertical element greater than other horizontal sins?

Now, I personally have done research on this, and I find no shred of evidence against these two commands (taken in their right meaning) being crimes nowadays. What do y'all think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:51 am

Not sure I agree with your whole thesis,
buy you missed a category of law; namely those laws designed to seperate the nation of Israel from the surrounding nations.

Not sure that these laws have been repealed.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:57 am

von wrote:
Not sure I agree with your whole thesis,
buy you missed a category of law; namely those laws designed to seperate the nation of Israel from the surrounding nations.

Not sure that these laws have been repealed.

That was included in the ceremonial laws. I might have been mistaken, but they really don't have an effect on our nation, as we are not Israel. They should have just as much effect on our civil laws as the ceremonial laws, right?

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:32 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
von wrote:
Not sure I agree with your whole thesis,
buy you missed a category of law; namely those laws designed to seperate the nation of Israel from the surrounding nations.

Not sure that these laws have been repealed.

That was included in the ceremonial laws. I might have been mistaken, but they really don't have an effect on our nation, as we are not Israel. They should have just as much effect on our civil laws as the ceremonial laws, right?

I am a horrible stickler for logic and Biblical accuracy. Obnoxious, really.

The sacraficial laws were not so much done away with as fulfilled. Christ was the final sacrifice.

However this is an entirely seperate issue from the 'keep Israel seperate' laws. The applicability or lack there of of those laws would depend on your view of Israel post Christ.

And, of course, merely because something involved a ceremony or a food etc. doesn't mean that it necessarily applies only to Israel. What does the law say? Does it is say 'because this is an abomination'? or 'because you are my people' or somesuch.

More work to do!
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:34 pm

Mr. Ohlman,
Right now, it seems like Jay is wanting us to discuss the applicability of the three laws concerning children and parents that he brought up in is previous post. Could we focus on these for right now, and then get back to the other areas of laws?

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:39 pm

Quote :
1)Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him.
Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

2)Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

3)Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that,] when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deuteronomy 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Deuteronomy 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deuteronomy 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I haven't done any research on this yet, (I know, shame on me) but here is my thought. All three of these fall under the two jurisdictions of God in eternity, (meaning that He can condemn us to Hell if we brake these laws) and the family (meaning that it falls under the punishable jurisdiction of the father.) The second of these three laws does infringe or do injury to a person's life. Therefore, of the three, I would say that only the second could be punishable by the government. However, because it more directly falls under the jurisdiction of the father in the family, does this mean that the government should not punish this but leave it to the father? This is something I will have to further study up on. What are your thoughts?

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:58 pm

Well this crime (one crime, really, three applications) is one of the laws which involve multiple jurisdictions. They are instances where the family jurisdiction needs to appeal to the civil magistrate.

Can we resume our regular programming now?

Now, here is a command given to the nation of Israel:

Code:
Deu 1:8  Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.


... and, I would argue, just to Israel.

Now then we have this:

Code:
Deu 4:6  Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.Deu 4:7  For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
Deu 4:8  And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 

What does this tell us about these laws that God gave Israel?

Then there's this one:

Quote :
Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

This doesn't seem to apply merely to Israel.

more later....
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:10 pm

Caleb, Caleb

(Look, Hannah, I'm trying to be nice Smile )

You say:

Quote :
I haven't done any research on this yet, (I know, shame on me) but here is my thought. All three of these fall under the two jurisdictions of God in eternity, (meaning that He can condemn us to Hell if we brake these laws) and the family (meaning that it falls under the punishable jurisdiction of the father.) The second of these three laws does infringe or do injury to a person's life. Therefore, of the three, I would say that only the second could be punishable by the government. However, because it more directly falls under the jurisdiction of the father in the family, does this mean that the government should not punish this but leave it to the father? This is something I will have to further study up on. What are your thoughts?

So, because of your grid, which does not exist in Scripture, about 'life', you take three applications of the same law and cut them in pieces.

As I said (to be fair, I was writing while you were posting this) these are the same law, and three different applications. Yes, they begin in the jurisdiction of the family, and move into the civil realm only when the father brings him to them.

Your last sentence might imply that a father has life and death power over his children. Do you believe that?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
caleb
Moderator
Moderator


Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:10 pm

von wrote:
Caleb, Caleb

(Look, Hannah, I'm trying to be nice Smile )

You say:

Quote :
I haven't done any research on this yet, (I know, shame on me) but here is my thought. All three of these fall under the two jurisdictions of God in eternity, (meaning that He can condemn us to Hell if we brake these laws) and the family (meaning that it falls under the punishable jurisdiction of the father.) The second of these three laws does infringe or do injury to a person's life. Therefore, of the three, I would say that only the second could be punishable by the government. However, because it more directly falls under the jurisdiction of the father in the family, does this mean that the government should not punish this but leave it to the father? This is something I will have to further study up on. What are your thoughts?

So, because of your grid, which does not exist in Scripture, about 'life', you take three applications of the same law and cut them in pieces.

As I said (to be fair, I was writing while you were posting this) these are the same law, and three different applications. Yes, they begin in the jurisdiction of the family, and move into the civil realm only when the father brings him to them.

Your last sentence might imply that a father has life and death power over his children. Do you believe that?

No, I do not believe that a father has life and death power over his children. For clarification, what do you mean by my grid? I do agree that this is one law with three applications. Because of the nature of this law, I tend to lean to the fact that it does not fall under the government's jurisdiction. I welcome all comments, as, like I said, I still need to research this one out.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
Back to top Go down
View user profile
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:38 pm

caleb wrote:
von wrote:
Caleb, Caleb

(Look, Hannah, I'm trying to be nice Smile )

You say:

Quote :
I haven't done any research on this yet, (I know, shame on me) but here is my thought. All three of these fall under the two jurisdictions of God in eternity, (meaning that He can condemn us to Hell if we brake these laws) and the family (meaning that it falls under the punishable jurisdiction of the father.) The second of these three laws does infringe or do injury to a person's life. Therefore, of the three, I would say that only the second could be punishable by the government. However, because it more directly falls under the jurisdiction of the father in the family, does this mean that the government should not punish this but leave it to the father? This is something I will have to further study up on. What are your thoughts?

So, because of your grid, which does not exist in Scripture, about 'life', you take three applications of the same law and cut them in pieces.

As I said (to be fair, I was writing while you were posting this) these are the same law, and three different applications. Yes, they begin in the jurisdiction of the family, and move into the civil realm only when the father brings him to them.

Your last sentence might imply that a father has life and death power over his children. Do you believe that?

No, I do not believe that a father has life and death power over his children. For clarification, what do you mean by my grid? I do agree that this is one law with three applications. Because of the nature of this law, I tend to lean to the fact that it does not fall under the government's jurisdiction. I welcome all comments, as, like I said, I still need to research this one out.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Your Grid: Life, Liberty, Property, etc. See:

Quote :
The second of these three laws does infringe or do injury to a person's life. Therefore, of the three, I would say that only the second could be punishable by the government.

You say it is because of the 'infringe or injury to a persons life' this it is punishable by the civil magistrate. Not a distinction you found in Scripture, one you brought to it.

Now, you say the father doesn't have that power, but you place the necessity for punishing the offender on the father. And the penalty is death. So...

what is it?
1) Father punishes: Penalty death.
2) Government punishes: Penalty death.
3) Change the penalty.

If the last... where do you find the change in Scripture?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
Dr. Hipopótamo
Honor roll member
Honor roll member


Male Number of posts : 131
Age : 23
Location : USA
Registration date : 11/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:38 pm

It seems like we might be wrongly assuming that unless otherwise stated, every command God gave the Israelite government is also a command for New Covenent governments. I don't think that is necessarily the case. Israel was in a very different situation from the situation a government today would be in. Israel's government was meant to enforce laws that would help set Israel apart from other nations. The end goal of New Testament believers is not to establish a government, because God's kingdom is not of this world. As New Covanent Christians, our main goal is not to make sure idolaters and blasphemers are punished. Our main goal is to preach the message of forgiveness to them. This is an important difference between Christianity and many other religions. So with that in mind, I think we should consider whether God intends governments today to follow the same rules as the Old Testament Israelite government.

We established in the Purpose of Government thread that "The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness." Maybe it would be a good idea to discuss why God made government to punish crime. After all, God is not punishing sin on earth for the most part, but giving a chance for repentence. So why is it the government's duty to punish certain sins? Is it just for the protection of the victims of these sins, or is there something else?
If we could discuss the reasons for the purpose of government in Israel and today, maybe that would give us a better reference for this discussion.

_________________
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6: 12)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sir Emeth Mimetes
Admin
Admin


Male Number of posts : 446
Age : 26
Location : Cork, co. Cork, Ireland
Registration date : 07/01/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:01 am

Greetings,

It is fine if we go into discussing what and why certain laws are considered only for Israel. That needs to be done anyways, and it will be good to get it behind us. It will also lay some groundwork for the decision of the three (actually one, like Von correctly pointed out) laws that I enumerated.

As to the honorable Dr.'s comments regarding Israel: I disagree for similar reasons that Von might disagree. Namely, that it is dangerous to lightly lay aside any portion of Scripture as not applicable unless it is clearly laid out in Scripture that it must be. The OT Laws of Israel are very clearly laid out and defined, including their intent and purposes. If an intent or purpose is no longer valid, or not valid to the case in hand, we may set it aside as not germane, although useful. But Scripture must be our guide in this: OT Mosaic Law is by default applicable, and remains applicable until it is shown to be otherwise.

Study the Pentateuch thoroughly, cross-referencing it yourself and reading the NT's comments on it. Read the Law of Israel, hunting in faith for the truth. It is exciting, quite like a treasure hunt (isn't that somewhere in the Bible? Wink ).

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://siremethmimetes.wordpress.com
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:24 pm

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
It seems like we might be wrongly assuming that unless otherwise stated, every command God gave the Israelite government is also a command for New Covenent governments. I don't think that is necessarily the case. Israel was in a very different situation from the situation a government today would be in. Israel's government was meant to enforce laws that would help set Israel apart from other nations. The end goal of New Testament believers is not to establish a government, because God's kingdom is not of this world. As New Covanent Christians, our main goal is not to make sure idolaters and blasphemers are punished. Our main goal is to preach the message of forgiveness to them. This is an important difference between Christianity and many other religions. So with that in mind, I think we should consider whether God intends governments today to follow the same rules as the Old Testament Israelite government.

We established in the Purpose of Government thread that "The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness." Maybe it would be a good idea to discuss why God made government to punish crime. After all, God is not punishing sin on earth for the most part, but giving a chance for repentence. So why is it the government's duty to punish certain sins? Is it just for the protection of the victims of these sins, or is there something else?
If we could discuss the reasons for the purpose of government in Israel and today, maybe that would give us a better reference for this discussion.

Not quite sure how to work this 'multi-quote' thing.

Anyway, have to disagree with Dr. H here.

When God spoke to Moses He gave a blueprint for a Biblical government. Where else would we look for the answer to how to form a government?

Consider Psalm 89:
Quote :
Psa 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
Psa 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
Psa 89:22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
Psa 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
Psa 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
Psa 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
Psa 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Psa 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psa 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Psa 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
Psa 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Psa 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Psa 89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Psa 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
Psa 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
Psa 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah

Now, at first this seems like a Psalm about David. But as we read on we discover that it is about the Messiah, and His Kingdom... ie about us, his people, his children.

Then in verse 30 we hear Gods lament about his children: breaking his law, not walking in his judgements, breaking His statutes, and don't keep his commandments... and He calls this 'transgressions'.



Just for clarification, the word 'law' in verse thirty is 'torah'.

H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
von



Male Number of posts : 166
Age : 55
Location : Texas
Registration date : 16/02/2009

PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:28 pm

Quote :
I disagree for similar reasons that Von might disagree.

Smile

Indeed, I might.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://vonstakes.blogspot.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Old Testament Law   

Back to top Go down
 
Old Testament Law
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 5Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Liberty's Light :: Biblical Government :: Bible study-
Jump to: