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 A Biblical view of human rights

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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Fri May 22, 2009 10:31 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Caleb,

Hmm... Well, we have defined what we mean by rights. And so we are able to use it ably on the rest of the forum now. If we try to go into defining what rights are biblical and which are not, which ones are in the civil magistrate's jurisdiction and what-not, this thread will be dealing with the Crime thread's stuff. So I think we should conclude this one with what we have already. Without delimiting any rights themselves, just what a right is. What do you think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Sounds good. Could you define 'rights' in green for us then?
-Caleb
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Dr. Hipopótamo
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Fri May 22, 2009 4:49 pm

As Jay said, I wasn't trying to say that capital punishment requires direct revelation from God for each instance. I was saying that God tells the government (through the Bible) to execute murderers.

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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Fri May 22, 2009 4:55 pm

Legally, we have the right to enjoy the gifts God has given us, namely life, liberty, and property, and use these gifts however we choose, as long as we don't use them to take away the gifts God has given someone else. Morally, we do not have the right to use God's gifts however we choose, but the responsibility to honor Him with everything we have.

What do you think of this as a conclusion?

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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Sat May 23, 2009 4:55 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
Legally, we have the right to enjoy the gifts God has given us, namely life, liberty, and property, and use these gifts however we choose, as long as we don't use them to take away the gifts God has given someone else. Morally, we do not have the right to use God's gifts however we choose, but the responsibility to honor Him with everything we have.

What do you think of this as a conclusion?

I would slightly rephrase that to:

Rights are the gifts God has given us of life, liberty, and property. A person can use these gifts however he chooses, as long as he doesn't use them to take away the rights of someone else. The law is made to protect these rights and it is the responsibility of the people to exercise these rights in accordance to the law so as not to infringe on another person's life, liberty, or property.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Sat May 23, 2009 5:17 am

caleb wrote:

I would slightly rephrase that to:

Rights are the gifts God has given us of life, liberty, and property. A person can use these gifts however he chooses, as long as he doesn't use them to take away the rights of someone else. The law is made to protect these rights and it is the responsibility of the people to exercise these rights in accordance to the law so as not to infringe on another person's life, liberty, or property.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Good for a start, but there is a definite difficulty: life liberty and property are not the only rights that we have. I believe that (if you understand them right) they are the only ones the government can punish the infringement of, but that is beside the point. Try this:

Rights are liberties given to us by God. They are not revocable by man's arbitrary decision: only by the stipulation and delegation of God. It is the moral responsibility of each person to use his Rights to the glory of God. It is the civil magistrate's duty to punish those who infringe on somebody's Right, as long as that Right is within his jurisdiction. No one, therefore, may infringe upon anyone else's Rights.

This makes the definition of rights dependent upon our definition of liberty, which is already defined. What do you guys think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Sat May 23, 2009 10:38 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:

Good for a start, but there is a definite difficulty: life liberty and property are not the only rights that we have. I believe that (if you understand them right) they are the only ones the government can punish the infringement of, but that is beside the point. Try this:

Rights are liberties given to us by God. They are not revocable by man's arbitrary decision: only by the stipulation and delegation of God. It is the moral responsibility of each person to use his Rights to the glory of God. It is the civil magistrate's duty to punish those who infringe on somebody's Right, as long as that Right is within his jurisdiction. No one, therefore, may infringe upon anyone else's Rights.

This makes the definition of rights dependent upon our definition of liberty, which is already defined. What do you guys think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

The only thing I don't like about this is the sentence: "It is the moral responsibility of each person to use his Rights to the glory of God." I believe that this is true for the Christian, but cannot be expected of the unsaved. All things do work out for the glory of God. He will be glorified in everything, including man sinning. Yet the unsaved person will not try to glorify God at all because it goes against His nature. It is the moral responsibility of everyone to use his rights in a way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others though. So maybe this rephrasal. (Yes, I did make up that word.)

Rights are liberties given to us by God. They are not revocable by man's arbitrary decision: only by the stipulation and delegation of God. It is the moral responsibility of each person to use his Rights in a way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others. It is the civil magistrate's duty to punish those who infringe on somebody's Right, as long as that Right is within his jurisdiction. No one, therefore, may infringe upon anyone else's Rights.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Sat May 23, 2009 1:14 pm

caleb wrote:

The only thing I don't like about this is the sentence: "It is the moral responsibility of each person to use his Rights to the glory of God." I believe that this is true for the Christian, but cannot be expected of the unsaved. All things do work out for the glory of God. He will be glorified in everything, including man sinning. Yet the unsaved person will not try to glorify God at all because it goes against His nature. It is the moral responsibility of everyone to use his rights in a way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others though. So maybe this rephrasal. (Yes, I did make up that word.)

Rights are liberties given to us by God. They are not revocable by man's arbitrary decision: only by the stipulation and delegation of God. It is the moral responsibility of each person to use his Rights in a way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others. It is the civil magistrate's duty to punish those who infringe on somebody's Right, as long as that Right is within his jurisdiction. No one, therefore, may infringe upon anyone else's Rights.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Caleb,

I agree with the altered conclusion.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Mon May 25, 2009 12:52 pm

Quote :
I believe that this is true for the Christian, but cannot be expected of the unsaved.

it is true (if it is true at all) for all men, and (assuming it is true) is one reason why God condemns the unbelievers... ie 'sin'.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Mon May 25, 2009 12:55 pm

Quote :
So maybe this rephrasal. (Yes, I did make up that word.)

Actually you didn't. Or at least if you did, others had before you Smile
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Mon May 25, 2009 3:32 pm

I believe that the unsaved have the same responsibilities as the saved, including the active pursuit of God's glory. It is correct that this cannot be expected of the unsaved, but it can still be required of them.
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Mon May 25, 2009 4:28 pm

von wrote:
Quote :
I believe that this is true for the Christian, but cannot be expected of the unsaved.

it is true (if it is true at all) for all men, and (assuming it is true) is one reason why God condemns the unbelievers... ie 'sin'.

I'm sorry, I see your point. Yes, I agree that man is required to obey and glorify God. (Matthew 5:48) But, it is impossible for man to do this unless he is saved. The only thing he can do is sin, based off of his nature. In a round-about way, this does glorify God; as all of man's actions do. So in the big picture, it is impossible for man to use his rights in a way that doesn't glorify God. This, then, is why I left that part out. It's pretty much unnecessary.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Mon May 25, 2009 8:41 pm

Caleb, is it not more accurate to say that they are used to glorify God, instead of actively glorifying Him?
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Tue May 26, 2009 2:21 am

von wrote:
Quote :
I believe that this is true for the Christian, but cannot be expected of the unsaved.

it is true (if it is true at all) for all men, and (assuming it is true) is one reason why God condemns the unbelievers... ie 'sin'.

Rutilus Regnum wrote:
I believe that the unsaved have the same responsibilities as the saved, including the active pursuit of God's glory. It is correct that this cannot be expected of the unsaved, but it can still be required of them.

caleb wrote:
von wrote:
Quote :
I believe that this is true for the Christian, but cannot be expected of the unsaved.

it is true (if it is true at all) for all men, and (assuming it is true) is one reason why God condemns the unbelievers... ie 'sin'.

I'm sorry, I see your point. Yes, I agree that man is required to obey and glorify God. (Matthew 5:48) But, it is impossible for man to do this unless he is saved. The only thing he can do is sin, based off of his nature. In a round-about way, this does glorify God; as all of man's actions do. So in the big picture, it is impossible for man to use his rights in a way that doesn't glorify God. This, then, is why I left that part out. It's pretty much unnecessary.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Rutilus Regnum wrote:
Caleb, is it not more accurate to say that they are used to glorify God, instead of actively glorifying Him?

Although interesting, this discussion is getting off-topic. Would you mind continuing it via pm? The concluding statement which we are discussing stands as follows:

Rights are liberties given to us by God. They are not revocable by man's arbitrary decision: only by the stipulation and delegation of God. It is the moral responsibility of each person to use his Rights in a way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others. It is the civil magistrate's duty to punish those who infringe on somebody's Right, as long as that Right is within his jurisdiction. No one, therefore, may infringe upon anyone else's Rights.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Tue May 26, 2009 5:33 am

Agreed to this conclusion.

-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Tue May 26, 2009 2:46 pm

When I talk about a moral responsibility, I mean a responsibility before God. Some of these are not what I might call "civil responsibility," which I would use to describe responsibilities before the government (i.e. failure to carry out these responsibilities would result in punishment by the civil magistrate.) Do you mean something else when you say, "Moral responsibility"? If you mean the same thing that I mean when I say it, then I would remove the phrase or write, "...moral and civil responsibility...," because the government does have the right to punish those who use their rights to infringe on others' rights. Am I making sense?

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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Tue May 26, 2009 9:45 pm

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
When I talk about a moral responsibility, I mean a responsibility before God. Some of these are not what I might call "civil responsibility," which I would use to describe responsibilities before the government (i.e. failure to carry out these responsibilities would result in punishment by the civil magistrate.) Do you mean something else when you say, "Moral responsibility"? If you mean the same thing that I mean when I say it, then I would remove the phrase or write, "...moral and civil responsibility...," because the government does have the right to punish those who use their rights to infringe on others' rights. Am I making sense?

Could you rewrite the whole thing so I can see what you propose?
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Wed May 27, 2009 2:16 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
When I talk about a moral responsibility, I mean a responsibility before God. Some of these are not what I might call "civil responsibility," which I would use to describe responsibilities before the government (i.e. failure to carry out these responsibilities would result in punishment by the civil magistrate.) Do you mean something else when you say, "Moral responsibility"? If you mean the same thing that I mean when I say it, then I would remove the phrase or write, "...moral and civil responsibility...," because the government does have the right to punish those who use their rights to infringe on others' rights. Am I making sense?

So if I understand you right, you would rephrase it thus:

Rights are liberties given to us by God. They are not revocable by man's arbitrary decision: only by the stipulation and delegation of God. It is the moral and civil responsibility of each person to use his Rights in a way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others. It is the civil magistrate's duty to punish those who infringe on somebody's Right, as long as that Right is within his jurisdiction. No one, therefore, may infringe upon anyone else's Rights.

Good catch! Thank you for pointing that out. Very insightful. I agree.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Wed May 27, 2009 5:47 am

Good catch Dr. H. Agreed to this conclusion as well.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Wed May 27, 2009 3:06 pm

Agreed to this conclusion!

In Him,
Hannah

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PostSubject: Re: A Biblical view of human rights   Thu May 28, 2009 9:43 am

EDIT!

Rights are liberties given to us by God. They are not revocable by man's arbitrary decision: only by the stipulation and delegation of God. It is the moral and civil responsibility of each person to use his Rights in a way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others. It is the civil magistrate's duty to punish those who infringe on somebody's Right, as long as that infringement is within his jurisdiction. No one, therefore, may infringe upon anyone else's Rights.

Changed "right" to "infringement" in the second to last sentence.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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