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 Schools and Government?

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Hannah Marie
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PostSubject: Schools and Government?   Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:25 am

Schools. Tax funded and government regulated institutions of learning. However, is it really within the government's purpose to have jurisdictions over schools? Should the government really finance and regulate schools? Should the government really have a hand in everything taught in schools? Should government mandate schooling?

With the corruption seen in schools today, we must ponder whether or not it is best or even correct that the government has control over the schools and youth's schooling.

  • Should the government have jurisdiction over schools?

  • Should the government control what is taught in schools?

  • Should the government finance schools?

  • Should schooling be required by law?

  • Any other thoughts or comments?


With love in Christ,
Hannah

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Dr. Hipopótamo
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:46 pm

* Should the government have jurisdiction over schools?
A little bit. Basically, unless schools or teachers are committing crimes, then government should stay out of it.

* Should the government control what is taught in schools?
Again, only if what is being taught is a crime. Teaching Jihad methods in a Muslim school, for example, should be illegal. Teaching in a Christian school that it is O.K. to kill people who are not Christians should be illegal. But it should be legal to have schools that teach both Christianity and Islam. I'm not exactly sure whether government should control things like how religious schools represent their own side and other sides. Should it be a crime for an Atheist school to tell their students that every smart person in the world is an atheist, or for a Christian school to tell their students that every atheist in the world tries to commit genocide like Hitler did? These are both lies, and could very easily lead to very bad misunderstandings if not crimes, but I haven't studied this enough to say whether this would be in the government's jurisdiction.

* Should the government finance schools?
No. Whatever government finances, government controls, and you get into messes like we have today where millions of kids are brainwashed with atheistic, liberal ideas and it is illegal to teach truth (except in private schools, which the government does not finance).

* Should schooling be required by law?
No. If it is, then government has to finance it. Otherwise, parents who cannot afford to send their children to school will be unfairly treated. Instead, parents who love their children will either send them to school anyway (if they can afford it) or teach them basic skills at home. There will also most likely be a lot of free schools that are funded by donations, that these parents could send their children to.

* Any other thoughts or comments?
Just that whatever government controls will eventually fall into the hands of evil bureaucrats. Many do not know that in America, schools were first established with explicitly religious purposes:

Northwest Ordinance, Article III
Religion, morality, and knowledge,
being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and
the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

Even though government schools were originally intended to teach religion, it is now illegal to teach religion in public schools. This shows that if you give the government the power to decide what is taught, then when the government falls into the hands of unbelievers, they will make sure that evil views are taught and that Truth is suppressed. The best we can do is to keep the government's hands out of it.

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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6: 12)


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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:06 pm

  • Should the government have jurisdiction over schools?

Only as much as it would over individuals, companies, churches, etc. It's only purpose is to protect people's life, liberty, and property, by punishing those who threaten or take these from someone. If the school is doing this, than by all means, the government has jurisdiction over the school to step in and punish crime. Otherwise, the government should stay out.

  • Should the government control what is taught in schools?

No, it is not the government's role to control what is taught in schools. That falls under the jurisdiction of the family. The government could only control that which falls under its jurisdiction. (See above paragraph.) Schools should be allowed to teach from whatever religion or worldview they believe in and want to teach from. They can use whatever curriculum they want and teach whatever classes they want. At least from the government's perspective. If you go into the family's jurisdiction, then things are different; the government has no jurisdiction over controlling what is taught in schools, families do.

  • Should the government finance schools?

Absolutely not. The government has no business financing something which is outside of its jurisdiction.

  • Should schooling be required by law?

No. The only commands in Scripture regarding education and training children are directed to the family. Therefore, it is the family's responsibility to educate their children. The government cannot legislate something which is outside of its jurisdiction. Education does not fall under constitutional law nor under case applications.

  • Any other thoughts or comments?

I'll severely paraphrase a quote from Doug Philips on this subject. I have not problem with public schools teaching atheism, evolution, secular humanism, sex education, situational ethics, or the legitimacy of abortion and homosexuality. "The problem I have with public schools is that they exist."

The only kind of schooling that should exist is homeschooling and some private schools. Private schools should only be in place for families who are unable to homeschool (ex. orphans, single parent, etc.), group classes (ex. drama, debate, etc.), or levels of education which are beyond the parents' ability (college levels, or hard classes). This is the most biblical form of education. Even so, private schools should be very limited. The church should assist orphans or children of single parents in their education. (Parents in the church offering to teach the children at certain times or certain classes.) Also, the whole concept of modern higher education is more of a flawed scam than a biblical principle. I won't go into this though as it is off topic.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:09 pm

Just wondering, is it off topic to talk about the Biblical commands for schooling? Because if not, then I am wondering about what Caleb said. Caleb, you stated that it isn't biblical for public schools to exsist. How so? I would like to see where you got this from.

And also, I believe it was Daniel that stated that schools should not teach anyother religion other then Christianity, or teachings from Christianity. However, in order to do so, we would have to deny people's liberties of being able to worship other god's if they so choose. Therefore, would that not be against our constitution we has started to establish?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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Dr. Hipopótamo
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:42 pm

Peter G. wrote:
Just wondering, is it off topic to talk about the Biblical commands for schooling? Because if not, then I am wondering about what Caleb said. Caleb, you stated that it isn't biblical for public schools to exsist. How so? I would like to see where you got this from.

And also, I believe it was Daniel that stated that schools should not teach anyother religion other then Christianity, or teachings from Christianity. However, in order to do so, we would have to deny people's liberties of being able to worship other god's if they so choose. Therefore, would that not be against our constitution we has started to establish?

In Christ,
Peter G.

I hope I didn't say that Surprised If I did, it's certainly not what I meant. I was intending to communicate the exact opposite, more like what you're saying. I think it should definitely be legal (although it is wrong) to teach false religions. I only questioned whether the government should have any role in protecting religions from gross misrepresentation. I'm not sure of this yet, but basically, with a few possible exceptions, government should not control what is taught. Am I being clear?

In Christ,
Daniel

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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:49 am

Yes I know what you are saying, however, would it be right to only teach one religion? Because then we would in short be saying that all other religions are wrong and evil, and that would A.) offend people. B.) Create a barrier towards other religions. And C.) make it not possible for people to have their own religions because they are being taught that they are wrong. (And if this is off topic for this thread, then perhaps we should start another thread on this.)

In Christ,
Peter G.


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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:14 am

Peter G. wrote:
Yes I know what you are saying, however, would it be right to only teach one religion? Because then we would in short be saying that all other religions are wrong and evil, and that would A.) offend people. B.) Create a barrier towards other religions. And C.) make it not possible for people to have their own religions because they are being taught that they are wrong. (And if this is off topic for this thread, then perhaps we should start another thread on this.)

In Christ,
Peter G.

Are you playing the Devil's Advocate again? Smile Because it seems hard for me to believe that you would believe that. confused We don't want any other religions taught, propagated, or believed in our nation at all by any means. Neither does God. But it is not the government's place to try to stop it.

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:16 am

Maybe... Wink

And its not that I do believe it, but you guys need to see that you would be infringing on other peoples liberties if we were to make a law saying that we could only teach Christianity in schools. Does that make sense?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:26 am

Peter G. wrote:
Maybe... Wink

And its not that I do believe it, but you guys need to see that you would be infringing on other peoples liberties if we were to make a law saying that we could only teach Christianity in schools. Does that make sense?

In Christ,
Peter G.

Well say so then. We do not want to confuse people. Smile

Well, it really would not be infringing on people's liberties: only on their freedoms (see the conclusions for the difference). But that is beside the point: it is not a crime (and therefore not within the government's jurisdiction) to dictate religion.

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:33 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Peter G. wrote:
Maybe... Wink

And its not that I do believe it, but you guys need to see that you would be infringing on other peoples liberties if we were to make a law saying that we could only teach Christianity in schools. Does that make sense?

In Christ,
Peter G.

Well say so then. We do not want to confuse people. Smile

Well, it really would not be infringing on people's liberties: only on their freedoms (see the conclusions for the difference). But that is beside the point: it is not a crime (and therefore not within the government's jurisdiction) to dictate religion.

Therefore, the government cannot create any law that dictacts schools to teach any religion.

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:04 am

Peter G. wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Peter G. wrote:
Maybe... Wink

And its not that I do believe it, but you guys need to see that you would be infringing on other peoples liberties if we were to make a law saying that we could only teach Christianity in schools. Does that make sense?

In Christ,
Peter G.

Well say so then. We do not want to confuse people. Smile

Well, it really would not be infringing on people's liberties: only on their freedoms (see the conclusions for the difference). But that is beside the point: it is not a crime (and therefore not within the government's jurisdiction) to dictate religion.

Therefore, the government cannot create any law that dictacts schools to teach any religion.

In Christ,
Peter G.

Exactly.

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:34 am

Well then I think we are ready for a conclusion for this thread then I think. We seem to have gotten to the core already. Very Happy

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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:56 am

Should the government have jurisdiction over schools?

No. We all know what happens when the government is in control of education. Bad things. I could, of course, elaborate, and will if you all wish me to, but I think you all already know most of what I would say, if not all of it.

It is the parent's jurisdiction as we see several times in Deuteronomy...

Moses, in Deuteronomy 6:5-7 wrote:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Should the government control what is taught in schools?

No. Again, not their jurisdiction. About the rather extreme example of Muslims teaching that it is okay and even a good thing to kill Christians simply because they are Christians: My dad was thinking that it is a Matthew 18 kind of deal.

Matthew wrote:
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


If you are the one who found out about this threat, you go and talk respectfully to them about it, explaining explaining how this is encouraging crime, etc... If they don't respond to that, go back with a few more members of the community. If they still won't change what they are teaching, you can then go to the local government, and then up to state and so on. The idea is that if it is at all possible, the community should deal with threats. Make sense?

Should the government finance schools?

No. If they finance it, they have a say in what is taught. Do we want that? No. So, there you have it.

Should schooling be required by law?

No. As my dad said, "If they want to be dumb, it's their own fault." Smile Okay, okay, I'll say a bit more... Once more, it's not the government's job to force people to get an education. If education is highly valued and readily available in the community, it should happen naturally. There will, of course, be some who will not bother with education, or at least only get what is necessary to live. However, those are the type that even were they forced to go to school would not really learn anything anyway. The government cannot force fools to become wise. Only God can do that.

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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:30 am

Duchess Daisy wrote:
Should schooling be required by law?

No. As my dad said, "If they want to be dumb, it's their own fault." Smile Okay, okay, I'll say a bit more... Once more, it's not the government's job to force people to get an education. If education is highly valued and readily available in the community, it should happen naturally. There will, of course, be some who will not bother with education, or at least only get what is necessary to live. However, those are the type that even were they forced to go to school would not really learn anything anyway. The government cannot force fools to become wise. Only God can do that.

I would just like to expand on this just a little more. There is actually an example of this in the United States, when it was first being formed. The communities would come together, and raise the funds to start a school for their children, not the government. That is what the "Founding People" (I guess you could say) did. Very Happy And from that generation, people like Patrick Henry, John Calhoun, Henry Clay, and Daniel Webster were brought up and taught in that kind of atmosphere, as well as at home. Our nation's best speakers, ever. (well, that last part is my own opinion, and many others as well. Very Happy)

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:04 am

Duchess Daisy wrote:


Should the government control what is taught in schools?

No. Again, not their jurisdiction. About the rather extreme example of Muslims teaching that it is okay and even a good thing to kill Christians simply because they are Christians: My dad was thinking that it is a Matthew 18 kind of deal.

Matthew wrote:
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


If you are the one who found out about this threat, you go and talk respectfully to them about it, explaining explaining how this is encouraging crime, etc... If they don't respond to that, go back with a few more members of the community. If they still won't change what they are teaching, you can then go to the local government, and then up to state and so on. The idea is that if it is at all possible, the community should deal with threats. Make sense?

Duchess Daisy,
This passage is referring to other believers ("your brother"). Thus, it is not applicable to militant Islamic extremists. These people aren't teaching that it's okay to kill Christians because they don't realize that it encourages crime; they are teaching it because it encourages crime. What good will it do to tell them what they already know? They see encouraging crime as a good thing, and the most they will do about it is kill you, too. Government definitely needs to stop any of this that is going on. Murderers cannot be "gained" like members of the church.

I do not mean to say that all Muslims are like this. I know Muslims who are very nice and would never kill someone for their faith. But if there ever are cases like this, someone who teaches that it is okay to commit murder is not someone you can respectfully approach and work out your differences. They are criminals and deserve to be punished.

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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:37 am

Greetings,

Daniel is right when he said that Islamic Extremest would not change their views because that is what they beileve. What Dutchess suggested would work mostly within the Christian community, and besides that, this whole thing is off topic. The topic is whether the government should control what is taught in schools. What Dutchess brought up is taught for religious purposes. Therefore, even if it was taught at schools, it would not matter because we are probably going to make it illegal to do so. Make sense?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:51 am

The government is not to be involved in any way with education or schooling except when people's life, liberty, and property, are being threatened or taken away in the educational system or school.

-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:17 am

These are starting to sound alike... Wink

Um, actually, I don't quite agree. What if in a school, someone's freedom was taken away because of their faith, and the government stepped in. I don't think that is within the government's juristiction because then the government would have to take someone else's freedom's away. Make sense? Or do I need to elaborate more?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:17 pm

Peter G. wrote:
These are starting to sound alike... Wink

Um, actually, I don't quite agree. What if in a school, someone's freedom was taken away because of their faith, and the government stepped in. I don't think that is within the government's jurisdiction because then the government would have to take someone else's freedom's away. Make sense? Or do I need to elaborate more?

In Christ,
Peter G.

Peter,
Are you referring to a situation where, for example, a student who believes in evolution might receive bad grades in a Christian school because of his beliefs, or a Christian student might not get accepted in a Hindu school, or something like that? This doesn't infringe on anyone's freedoms, because they can always choose to go to a different school, or not go to school at all. So you are right that the government would be wrong to step in, but I don't think that our conclusion would give the government that power it would be wrong, but it wouldn't be a crime. If someone in a school was beaten or killed because of his faith, then that would be a time for the government to step in. See what I mean, or am I missing something?

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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:34 pm

So, the conclusion is only refering to physical action against a person (like murder) and not a personal bias (like getting regected from a school for your beliefs)? Or am I missing something? Because if that's the case, then I think it should be fine. Though the thing is, I don't think that our conclusions will work all the time. Why? Because until real life situations arise will we be able to see the full picture... But if what Daniel says is what the conclusion is talking about, then I agree.

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:11 pm

Could the conclusion actually be more specific perhaps?

_________________
If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:13 pm

I have to agree with Hannah on this one guys, (A FIRST! Wink) It does seem a little vage. Just like that last one. I mean we are pretty much just restating the overall conclusion of the juristiction all over agian.

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:27 am

caleb wrote:
The government is not to be involved in any way with education or schooling except when people's life, liberty, and property, are being threatened or taken away in the educational system or school.

-Caleb

Well, I think that the last bit could be utterly taken out. Simply because the government has to deal with crime no matter where it is (to a degree) anyways. We do not need to stipulate it here again. The government should not really care where crime is occurring: it should just deal with it. Make sense?

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:07 am

I only include that because I fear that people running the nation 200 years after its founding will argue that the government cannot prevent crimes in school (like someone's liberty being taken away) because it would be getting involved in the education or schooling process. I may be a little too paranoid, but I've seen what they've done with our nation's Constitution. How about this conclusion.

The government is not to be involved in any way with education or schooling except to punish crime.

-Caleb
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: Schools and Government?   Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:31 am

caleb wrote:
I only include that because I fear that people running the nation 200 years after its founding will argue that the government cannot prevent crimes in school (like someone's liberty being taken away) because it would be getting involved in the education or schooling process. I may be a little too paranoid, but I've seen what they've done with our nation's Constitution. How about this conclusion.

The government is not to be involved in any way with education or schooling except to punish crime.

-Caleb

Ah, I see. I believe that the opposite danger is more dangerous, and more likely, but I see your point. Ironically, I fear lest the way it is phrased currently will give government (200 years down the road) the leverage to control curricula when a crime has been committed (although there was no real connection between the two). See what I mean? How about something like this:

The government is not to be involved in any way with education or schooling except to punish criminals.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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