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 What is property?

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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: What is property?   Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:24 am

Greetings,

In any definition of crime, it will involve property. We need to define what we mean by property. This will not be as easy as it sounds.

Should property include the water, air, sunlight, etc, that are on land when you buy it? So that it would be a crime (as it is in Japan) for you neighbor to erect a structure that casts a shadow over your property (important if you have a garden or an underground house). It would also be a crime if a factory was built next door and started polluting your air and dirtying your windows and laundry on the line. Same with dumping garbage or chemical into their water which pollutes your water. Etc.

I believe property should include your health, so that somebody stabbing your arm with a knife would be a crime. But then somebody smoking next to you could possibly be considered a crime, as well as emitting damaging electrical waves near you (according to some people, this would include cell phones, cordless phones, wi-fi hotspots, etc.), as these damage your health as well. Where do you stop?

What about threats? If I draw a gun and point it at you, I am threatening you. This is a crime in most places, is it a crime biblically?

What about authority when somebody is on your land? Can I demand that you not use cell phones on my plane in case it messes with my equipment? What about demanding that you not carry a gun on board my plane lest it go off and puncture the fuselage? What if I do not want you to make loud noises on my property lest you disturb my animals?

Lots of questions. A lot of these we will not be able to completely answer: we must leave it up to the civil magistrate's judgment to whom the case is brought. But we must define property at least loosely. Or clarify what is not your property. Maybe.

What do you think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:01 am

Boy, you sure took a seemingly simple term to define and made it really hard.

I'll have to do more research into the Bible on this issue, but here are my initial thoughts:

The government should limit its control in most areas of life. Its purpose is to protect peoples life, liberty, and property. I don't think that it is right for the government to control whether or not you "erect a structure that casts a shadow over your property." This is way too much control. I recently had the honor of paging at the Indiana State Senate. We were in the senate room during session and were able to see many of the bills that were being passed. They were outrageous. One sounded like it was restricting the kind of fertilizer companies could use on grass. Maybe that fertilizer isn't the best, but I'm sorry, that is not the government's job. There were several other bills that are even worse that protect animals more than people. This is what happens when the government gets too much control.

So our definition of property should be limited. I think it should include liberty or life. For instance, if the action that is being debated as to whether or not it should be a crime based on protecting people's property does not affect their life or liberty, it is not under government jurisdiction. Example:

Constructing a structure that casts a shadow over your property does not directly impede the neighbors life or liberty. In fact, making this illegal actually impedes your own liberty.

Building a factory near housing potentially does impede on life. So the government should be able to require that the factory enforce all necessary measure to dilute or take away this pollution with better technology. They may also be able to require the factory be build a certain distance from any residential areas. This is all up for debate though.

Restricting smoking or use of cell phones should be applied to the same grid. How does this affect anyone's life or liberty.

Again, I'll need to do research on this, but that's my thought.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:13 am

Just to throw a little politically incorrect Scripture into the mix:

Quote :
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:26 am

von wrote:
Just to throw a little politically incorrect Scripture into the mix:

Quote :
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Amen!

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:36 am

Exodus 29:9- "For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour."

Here is the New King James Version of this verse so as to clear up any confusion of the language :“For any kind of trespass, whether it concerns an ox, a donkey, a sheep, or clothing, or for any kind of lost thing which another claims to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whomever the judges condemn shall pay double to his neighbor."

Webster's 1828 Dictionary- PROP'ERTY, n. [This seems to be formed directly from proper. The Latin is proprietas.]
4. The exclusive right of possessing, enjoying and disposing of a thing; ownership. In the beginning of the world, the Creator gave to man dominion over the earth, over the fish of the sea and the fowls of the air, and over every living thing. This is the foundation of man's property in the earth and in all its productions. Prior occupancy of land and of wild animals gives to the possessor the property of them. The labor of inventing, making or producing any thing constitutes one of the highest and most indefeasible titles to property. Property is also acquired by inheritance, by gift or by purchase. Property is sometimes held in common, yet each man's right to his share in common land or stock is exclusively his own. One man may have the property of the soil,and another the right of use, by prescription or by purchase.

6. The thing owned; that to which a person has the legal title, whether in his possession or not. It is one of the greatest blessings of civil society that the property of citizens is well secured.

7. An estate, whether in lands, goods or money; as a man of large property or small property.

Some interesting quotes from the Bible and Webster concerning property. Any thoughts?

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:00 pm

Greetings,

The previous four posts discussing whether or not a wife is her husband's property have been removed. I am not simply lashing out at an idea that I am offended by and which I have no defense for: I am refusing to attack an idea unworthy of attack. I do not fear the truth, but I do not want to waste time chasing doubtful disputations. I am hesitant to believe that any of our forum members actually believe this terrible lie. I have decided that it is not necessary or even worthwhile to take the time to refute this idea. It is a waste of our time, which ought to be spent in other, more worthy discussions. I refuse to take the challenge seriously if the subject being brought up was a challenge. Any comments, questions, or complaints on this decision may be directed to me via pm.

I do not want people to look at our forum and believe that we hold to such dangerous and evil ideas as that women are the property of their husbands. We will not tolerate the subject being brought up even if done as a devil's advocate technique, an illustration of a point of semantics, as a joke, or any other reason.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:39 pm

Let me then jump straight to my conclusion, avoiding the forbidden subject:

"Property' is not a Biblical word, and not a useful one in discussing the role of the civil government.

Without delving back into the forbidden subject, I cannot really lay out my case. Perhaps on my blog.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:45 am

Greetings,

The word "property" is not in the Bible, but the principle is. You can define property many ways, and some are flat out wrong. Slave owners (not like in the Bible, but the bad ones) define property to include their slaves. Another, equally wrong and dangerous definition includes wives. We know that these definitions are wrong, and that is why we are here defining it right to avoid people defining it however they want. We are defining property correctly, and that is the purpose of this thread.

Here are the relevant definitions of property from Webster's 1828:

PROP'ERTY, n. [This seems to be formed directly from proper. The Latin is proprietas.]

...

4. The exclusive right of possessing, enjoying and disposing of a thing; ownership. In the beginning of the world, the Creator gave to man dominion over the earth, over the fish of the sea and the fowls of the air, and over every living thing. This is the foundation of man's property in the earth and in all its productions. Prior occupancy of land and of wild animals gives to the possessor the property of them. The labor of inventing, making or producing any thing constitutes one of the highest and most indefeasible titles to property. Property is also acquired by inheritance, by gift or by purchase. Property is sometimes held in common, yet each man's right to his share in common land or stock is exclusively his own. One man may have the property of the soil,and another the right of use, by prescription or by purchase.

...

6. The thing owned; that to which a person has the legal title, whether in his possession or not. It is one of the greatest blessings of civil society that the property of citizens is well secured.


These definitions are Biblical. We need to refine them though to delineate what can constitute Biblical property and what cannot.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:32 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Greetings,

The word "property" is not in the Bible, but the principle is. You can define property many ways, and some are flat out wrong. Slave owners (not like in the Bible, but the bad ones) define property to include their slaves. Another, equally wrong and dangerous definition includes wives. We know that these definitions are wrong, and that is why we are here defining it right to avoid people defining it however they want. We are defining property correctly, and that is the purpose of this thread.

Here are the relevant definitions of property from Webster's 1828:

PROP'ERTY, n. [This seems to be formed directly from proper. The Latin is proprietas.]

...

4. The exclusive right of possessing, enjoying and disposing of a thing; ownership. In the beginning of the world, the Creator gave to man dominion over the earth, over the fish of the sea and the fowls of the air, and over every living thing. This is the foundation of man's property in the earth and in all its productions. Prior occupancy of land and of wild animals gives to the possessor the property of them. The labor of inventing, making or producing any thing constitutes one of the highest and most indefeasible titles to property. Property is also acquired by inheritance, by gift or by purchase. Property is sometimes held in common, yet each man's right to his share in common land or stock is exclusively his own. One man may have the property of the soil,and another the right of use, by prescription or by purchase.

...

6. The thing owned; that to which a person has the legal title, whether in his possession or not. It is one of the greatest blessings of civil society that the property of citizens is well secured.


These definitions are Biblical. We need to refine them though to delineate what can constitute Biblical property and what cannot.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

I think I will hash this out in PM. Until then, I stand by my assertion, that 'property' is NOT a helpful word in this discussion, and that Jay has shown us why.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:30 am

OK. Via PM Jay has responded to my objections by adding a fourth category: Contract.

Contract is (as I understand it so far from him) as applying to those responisibilities we owe each other as a result of obligations: either freely entered into (agreements) or inherent in our roles and jurisdictions(husband/wife, father/children, master/slave, governor/citizen, etc.)

It is distinguished from 'property' in that property is non-human.

Perhaps Jay will clarify further what he means by these terms.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:46 am

von wrote:
It is distinguished from 'property' in that property is non-human.

Not quite just non-human.

The exclusive right of possessing, enjoying and disposing of a thing; ownership. In the beginning of the world, the Creator gave to man dominion over the earth, over the fish of the sea and the fowls of the air, and over every living thing. This is the foundation of man's property in the earth and in all its productions. Prior occupancy of land and of wild animals gives to the possessor the property of them. The labor of inventing, making or producing any thing constitutes one of the highest and most indefeasible titles to property. Property is also acquired by inheritance, by gift or by purchase. Property is sometimes held in common, yet each man's right to his share in common land or stock is exclusively his own. One man may have the property of the soil,and another the right of use, by prescription or by purchase.

This specifies property as something which you can practically do what you want with (within bounds of liberty, of course). You cannot do whatever you want with a contract, because it is a mutual agreement to limit each other's liberties, and a breaching of the contract is a breaching of the other person's liberty. A contract is a thing that arises from both liberty and property, which was understood by the American Founding Fathers when they spoke of "life, liberty, and property (or the pursuit of happiness)".

There are certain contracts that are inescapable: they are entered into on the performing of an act and which you are bound to. These are delimited in the Bible and can be expounded upon later in subsequent threads.

But Von is right on one thing: humans cannot be property. Although humans are often involved in contracts.

I hope that helps a little bit. We will probably need to have a thread defining Contracts.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:04 am

Quote :
This specifies property as something which you can practically do what you want with (within bounds of liberty, of course).

Ummm... no. I think that you have already placed bounds on what we can do with property.

And in a larger sense, we hold all of our property under 'contract' from God... we are to do with it only what pleases Him.

So I don't see that as being a helpful distinction between what I can do with my daughter and what I can do with my land, or cow, or house. I must glorify God in what I do with both. I hold both under stewardship.

And your interpretation may also fall a bit foul of Gen 22.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:08 am

You seem to have avoided our contractual relationships that we enter into just by being: ie son/daughter etc. Intentional?
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:53 am

Greetings,

We will discuss the contextual definition of how we will use the word property in our constitution in this thread, and leave the definition of contracts to another definition thread.

Property is any object which we have exclusive control over, our control being limited by the liberties that we have, based on our definition of liberty. So, we can do whatever righteous act we want with our own property. Property cannot include mankind.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon May 25, 2009 8:41 am

Property is anything that we have exclusive control over, our control being limited by the liberties that we have, based on our definition of liberty. So, we can do whatever righteous act we want with our own property. Property cannot include mankind.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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von



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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon May 25, 2009 11:52 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Property is anything that we have exclusive control over, our control being limited by the liberties that we have, based on our definition of liberty. So, we can do whatever righteous act we want with our own property. Property cannot include mankind.


Ummm... two issues:

1) What about non-exclusive (ie joint) control?
2) And of course we hold everything we hold in stewardship.. .which would techincally mean no one has p ropery Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon May 25, 2009 1:51 pm

von wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Property is anything that we have exclusive control over, our control being limited by the liberties that we have, based on our definition of liberty. So, we can do whatever righteous act we want with our own property. Property cannot include mankind.


Ummm... two issues:

1) What about non-exclusive (ie joint) control?
2) And of course we hold everything we hold in stewardship.. .which would technically mean no one has property Smile

1) joint control of property by contract or other means is also exclusive, although some might call it non-exclusive. It is exclusive of those who are not a part of the joint ownership. This definition of property allows for this fact, and a few others that would be too difficult to enumerate.

2) exclusive control on a horizontal (i.e., man to man) level is what this means. Because God gave property to man to be stewards of, we are able to have property. So in this definition we need not stipulate this.

Something that I noticed: by saying "righteous act" we are giving a loophole to the civil magistrate. Not good. Perhaps something like "our control being limited by other people's liberties. So, we may not abridge another's liberties by our use of our property."

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Mon May 25, 2009 4:36 pm

How about this re-write. (I did plagiarize most of it. Hope that's OK.)

Property is anything we exercise ownership and have exclusive control over; our control working in accordance to our definitions of liberty and crime. This means that our control is limited by other people's liberties. So, we may not abridge another's liberties by our use of our property. Property cannot include mankind.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Tue May 26, 2009 2:23 am

caleb wrote:
How about this re-write. (I did plagiarize most of it. Hope that's OK.)

Property is anything we exercise ownership and have exclusive control over; our control working in accordance to our definitions of liberty and crime. This means that our control is limited by other people's liberties. So, we may not abridge another's liberties by our use of our property. Property cannot include mankind.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

Excellent! I like your rephrasing of the first sentence. I agree.

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Tue May 26, 2009 2:37 pm

What about slaves? Obviously they should not be treated as property the way they were in America before the civil war, but in the Bible, slavery was more like a contract to work for someone for a period of time in exchange for money. But this is more like ownership of someone else's time, and is far different from the way slavery was treated in America.

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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Tue May 26, 2009 9:46 pm

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
What about slaves? Obviously they should not be treated as property the way they were in America before the civil war, but in the Bible, slavery was more like a contract to work for someone for a period of time in exchange for money. But this is more like ownership of someone else's time, and is far different from the way slavery was treated in America.


Oooo... not allowed to talk about this Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Wed May 27, 2009 2:16 am

Dr. Hipopótamo wrote:
What about slaves? Obviously they should not be treated as property the way they were in America before the civil war, but in the Bible, slavery was more like a contract to work for someone for a period of time in exchange for money. But this is more like ownership of someone else's time, and is far different from the way slavery was treated in America.

Slavery, servitude, being an employee, whatever you call it, is a contract, not property. It deals with a mutual limiting of liberties for a mutual good by mutual consent (or by mandate by the civil magistrate as a form of restitution). So that would not even need to be mentioned in our definition of property (except to exclude mankind from property).

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:19 am

Greetings,

I everyone agreed to archive this?

Property is anything we exercise ownership and have exclusive control over; our control working in accordance to our definitions of liberty and crime. This means that our control is limited by other people's liberties. So, we may not abridge another's liberties by our use of our property. Property cannot include mankind.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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caleb
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Male Number of posts : 231
Age : 24
Location : Central Indiana
Registration date : 14/03/2009

PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:33 am

Agreed.
-Caleb
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Hannah Marie
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PostSubject: Re: What is property?   Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:42 am

Agreed!

Hannah

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If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding; and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5
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