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 Defining a Citizen

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caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:15 pm

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Alright,

Caleb, you bring up some interesting points, not the least of which is Israel's handling of immigrants. Foreigners were obliged to obey the civil laws of Israel, as well as some of the ceremonial and religious laws, although not all from what I remember. And when you remove the special restrictions that applied to Israel, there is no reason why non-citizens could own land or hold a job. At least not that I know of. Do you have any reasons?

Good question. Here are my reasons: (First, I will tackle the owning land argument because I see it as the stronger of the two.) I figured that we should only allow citizens the privilege of owning land because of the fact that (Oh, wait; I just thought of a hole in this argument) the government's role is to protect its citizen's life, liberty, and property. If a foreigner comes in and buys property and later, someone vandalizes it, you come across the problem of the owner not being under the judicial jurisdiction of that nation, but rather, creating a problem which must go international. So, basically, the government is less able to properly fulfill its role in justice, protection, and rewarding. The problem I referred to earlier which I just thought of is, this couldn't be applied only to land. What about cars, equipment, buildings, etc.

Secondly, land has been universally recognized as the boundaries and dominion of a nation. Citizens own and care for the land, while the government protects them. If you allow anyone to buy land in your nation, you could end up having more noncitizen land owners occupying your government's national boundaries. This can prove problematic in regards to crime. I could elaborate on this last statement if you need me to; there are several reasons. Also, when Israel was casting lots for the promised land, foreigners seem to be excluded.

Numbers 26:55- "Notwithstanding the land shall be divided by lot: according to the names of the tribes of their fathers they shall inherit."

Numbers 33:54- "And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit."

Numbers 34:13- "And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying, This is the land which ye shall inherit by lot, which the LORD commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half tribe:"

I see land ownership as a special privilege allowed for being a citizen. (It also helps the government out a bit.) It makes it more likely for people who are under that government's jurisdiction to enjoy the benefits of living in that land (as apposed to being possibly overrun by foreigners.)

Secondly, in regards to geting a job, this is to help further discourage illegal immigration. (See the immigration thread. I'll try to post something there soon.) This way, the only foreigners in the nation would be tourists, business men on a business trip to a branch of a business in another nation, visitors, and possibly students.

These two stipulations not only cut down on crime and illegal immigration (which, I would argue is a crime; see immigration thread latter) but also gives benefits, privileges, incentives, and rewards to law abiding citizens.

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:

As to the other differences that you delineated, I agree with you as far as they go. A government can only be justly instituted by the consent of the governed (biblical and American principle), and so if one desires to become a citizen, then all he need do is consent. That is in my view, and I think it is logical. The only objections that people come up with for that are either economical or religious. And both of those objections are unfounded in all of the research that I have done. Who cares if they do not mean it? They need to obey it anyways.

As for taxes, well, that is a different subject.

What do you think?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser


I agree with two exceptions. I think that both criminal background checks and health checks should be given before a foreigner is allowed to become a citizen. 1. To prevent known criminals from coming in (once someone is convicted of a crime, they are more likely to repeat it or another crime) 2. To prevent diseases from entering and spreading through the nation.

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
No amount of immigration hurt America in and of itself:


I think that some immigration has seriously hurt America, but I will differ that discussion to the thread pertaining to that topic.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:30 am

Caleb,

Well, there is a lot in that post to talk about, and so I expect that we will be spending a while going through it. For now, while I have time, I would like to point out only two things for your consideration.

The first thing is an additional agreement with your acknowledgment of the lack of support for your first reason. You rightly realized that government cannot restrict itself to defending only its citizens' rights. This is why we did not stipulate 'citizens' in our conclusion on that head:

The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.

If we had, then we would be forced to conclude that visiting tourists could be shot, maimed, robbed, kidnapped, and otherwise mistreated by the citizens without impunity. This is very un-biblical to say the least.

The second thing that I want to do is ask a question: how do we know if an immigrant is a criminal? Do we assume that they are guilty until proven innocent? Or do we hold a trial at the borders? Or do we trust the government that they came from? And if we do, how do we know that they were just in their dealings? There are thousands of non-criminals branded as criminals even in the USA.

I will see if I can get to this more later. Thanks for the post!

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:48 am

Jay,

About the Immigration, I believe what Caleb was trying to say is since Illegal Immigration has the word, "Illegal" in it, that it is against the law, therefore, bad. (If you follow me so far.) And then I believe what Caleb was saying as well that most of the people who cause trouble in America come from "Illegal Immigration". (Hence his debate evidence) Therefore, "Illegal Imigration" is bad for America in any amount. (Caleb, please correct me if I didn't follow your reasoning.) Do you follow me/Caleb so far?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:36 am

Peter,

Exactly. I agree with that. The point of my last post was, however, to remind us that we are supposed to be focusing on whether or not certain types of immigration, if any, are criminal. Even if certain types might lead to the possibility of criminal action, government cannot do anything about it biblically, because it is not in the business of prevention. Make sense?

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:39 am

Jay,

Okay, I agree with that. Though I do believe that you said that in the Illegal Immigration Thread... (Which I didn't read till after I posted. oops...)

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:37 pm

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:

The first thing is an additional agreement with your acknowledgment of the lack of support for your first reason. You rightly realized that government cannot restrict itself to defending only its citizens' rights. This is why we did not stipulate 'citizens' in our conclusion on that head:

The sole purpose and function of government is to punish crime and give praise to those who work righteousness.

If we had, then we would be forced to conclude that visiting tourists could be shot, maimed, robbed, kidnapped, and otherwise mistreated by the citizens without impunity. This is very un-biblical to say the least.

Here is my struggle with this. What do we do about international justice? OK, say a visiting tourist maimed someone. Of course we apprehend them, but what then? Our punishments may be different than another nation's. Do we ship them to their nation to be prosecuted? What about our citizen's in other nations? Say they break a ridiculous law in that nation that isn't a law in our nation. (Or maybe their punishment is significantly different than ours.) What would we want done for our citizen? Help?

This is why I get stumbled up here. If we allow non-citizens to own land or hold a job, what is the difference between a citizen and non-citizen? It would only be protection. This gets quite confusing in regards to laws, boundaries, international relations, wars and military, and privileges. Do we only protect those within the boarders of our nation? What happens when they go overseas and get held hostage or some killed? Do we go to war? Do we negotiate? For whom? Anyone that has lived in our nation, or only citizens? Do citizens have any privileges that non-citizens don't? I think that land ownership and a job ensures citizens (or at least provides citizens) with security in being able to live and provide for yourself within the boundaries of your country without having non-citizens enjoying these privileges possibly at citizens' expense. It also gives better national pride and pool for military and governmental positions. Forgive me if some of this is cryptic or confusing; my head is still kind of foggy. I may come back and edit it a bit.

To God be the glory,
-Caleb

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:50 am

Caleb,

I am currently doing a massive topical Bible Study of what the Bible says about Citizenship and Strangers (what it calls foreigners living in a nation not their own). I already have about ten pages, and I only just started. I hope to have it finished soon, and then I will answer. I am finding the answers to all of your above questions. Talk to you later!

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:50 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Caleb,

I am currently doing a massive topical Bible Study of what the Bible says about Citizenship and Strangers (what it calls foreigners living in a nation not their own). I already have about ten pages, and I only just started. I hope to have it finished soon, and then I will answer. I am finding the answers to all of your above questions. Talk to you later!

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

I'm so glad, because this topic has really puzzled me. That's why we should go to the Bible for answers. I'm quite swamped right now or else I would do one myself. Thanks for doing it for me. I look forward to seeing your conclusions and whether or not you applied proper hermeneutics. (Although, so far, you've done a great job.)

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:58 pm

Jay,

OK, since I think you solved the immigration problem, what about citizenry? What is the difference between citizens and non-citizens and what are the qualifications to being a citizen?

-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:13 am

caleb wrote:
Jay,

OK, since I think you solved the immigration problem, what about citizenry? What is the difference between citizens and non-citizens and what are the qualifications to being a citizen?

-Caleb

Alright, I have done some research on this Biblically, and to be honest, I have no idea of how to present my results. Crying or Very sad What I found startled me (it was nothing like what I was expecting), and I am having a very hard time figuring out how to articulate it since it is so radical. So I would appreciate some help here. Smile I am going to be Socratic, so just answer the questions and help me along. Wink

First, what are the possible differences between citizens and non-citizens? What makes sense with what we have discovered elsewhere so far? I have a short list, and I have researched all of them out, but please add to them if you think of more.

  • Permission to vote
  • Permission to own land (acquire rents in the nation)
  • Permission to work (acquire wages in the nation)
  • Permission to have a business (acquire profits in the nation)
  • Permission to hold government office
  • Permission to ... ummm... sorry can't think of any more permission stuff Smile
  • being defended from attack and crime internally
  • being defended from attack and crime internationally
  • exemption from taxes/tribute (either strangers or citizens)
  • no more here...


These all, I have studied (and you have seen some of it over in the immigration thread). And most of them are obviously not valid differences, Biblically. Are there any others that you can think of, before I start going through them?

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.


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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:57 am

Hey Jay,

I have not been on here in a while, but so far I have agreed with almost all that has been said. I like the list so far, but I have one more that may be a good add. How about "permission to participate in governmental offices" or something of that sort?

Blessings,
Hannah

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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:22 pm

Hannah Marie wrote:
Hey Jay,

I have not been on here in a while, but so far I have agreed with almost all that has been said. I like the list so far, but I have one more that may be a good add. How about "permission to participate in governmental offices" or something of that sort?

Blessings,
Hannah

Ah! Thank you Hannah! I knew I was forgetting something. I have added that to my list. Smile Glad you mentioned that, I had researched it, but forgot to add it.

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:57 am

I'm eager to see what you found even if it's not in any logical order. Just post it the way you found it.

-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:21 am

caleb wrote:
I'm eager to see what you found even if it's not in any logical order. Just post it the way you found it.

-Caleb

Oh dear. I will try. I will be posting it piece by piece though. I hope to get the first one posted on Monday of next week, since I am ridiculously swamped right now. Smile

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:19 am

Well, real quick while I have time:

  • Permission to own land (acquire rents in the nation)
  • Permission to work (acquire wages in the nation)
  • Permission to have a business (acquire profits in the nation)


Those three have already been dealt with in the Immigration thread. Right? Strangers have these permissions just as much as citizens.

I will try to get to the rest as soon as I have time. Smile

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:28 am

Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Well, real quick while I have time:

  • Permission to own land (acquire rents in the nation)
  • Permission to work (acquire wages in the nation)
  • Permission to have a business (acquire profits in the nation)


Those three have already been dealt with in the Immigration thread. Right? Strangers have these permissions just as much as citizens.

I will try to get to the rest as soon as I have time. Smile

I'm not sure if we determined this in the Immigration thread. I think the only thing we discussed was about people coming in and out of a nation.

Quote :
there should be no restrictions on immigration of any kind and that everyone is free to come in and go out as long as he is not threatening or taking someone's life, liberty, or property or breaking a contract?

I'd like to see your arguments for these three in more detail, unless you addressed these in the Immigration thread. (I skimmed through it and didn't see anything, but I could have missed something.) I'm sorry to be so difficult with this topic, but it's a hard one for me. (Probably from my own experience, especially in debate.)

To God be the glory,
-Caleb
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:33 am

I wrote:
There is no direct references to strangers owning land that I can recall in my research, although it is possible that I missed it. What I did not miss, however, was the many references to strangers habitually residing in the land. There are actually several Hebrew words dedicated to those people in particular, and are translated as either sojourner or as stranger.

There were 153,600 strangers living in the land of Israel in Solomon's time (2 Chron. 2:17). It is hard for all those people to reside there habitually with their families if they are not permitted to have jobs or own stock or land.

Leviticus 25:47-49 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother [that dwelleth] by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger [or] sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:
48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:
49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or [any] that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.

This passage does not refer to a stranger owning land, but talks about a stranger owning the service of an Israelite. It also refers to stranger (also called sojourner here for a reason) as waxing rich. The two words 'sojourner' and 'stranger' here have a sense of residence to them in their definitions and usage. Which makes sense, because how could some one wax rich in one spot if he doesn't stay there? This waxing rich also requires that he either own land from which he gets rent, or employs stock in a way that brings him profit, or he works for someone else for which he gets wages. All of these are alike means of income, and there are no laws refusing strangers from any one of them. Besides, he is employing the Israelite, so that implies that he can employ people. Smile

That was in my study. Sorry if it was not clear enough. Basically, a foreigner has no restrictions as far as being able to receive rent (income from owning land), profit (income from owning a business), or wages (income from working). This is clear when you do an in depth word study of the OT laws.

Does that help?

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:02 pm

Then what you are saying is that what the Japanese are doing in America is perfectly legal? and all of the complaining that people are doing about them taking over our economy is completely wrong because of what they are doing is legal?

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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:39 am

Peter G. wrote:
Then what you are saying is that what the Japanese are doing in America is perfectly legal? and all of the complaining that people are doing about them taking over our economy is completely wrong because of what they are doing is legal?

In Christ,
Peter G.

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to. Perhaps you mean the Mexicans? But it depends on what you mean by 'legal.' It might be illegal in the sense that the law of America is against them. But the Law of God has nothing against people coming into the nation.

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:32 am

Sorry if I wasn't completely clear. I ment people are complaining that the Japanese are starting to take over the US economy with their businesses and also getting some high end jobs. However, you stated that its perfectly Biblical for them to do so. (Not taking one side or the other, just stating facts) So you are saying that the people have no real reason Biblically to complain about the Japanese "taking over" the economy because of the businesses and such. Make sense now?

In Christ,
Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:00 am

Peter G. wrote:
Sorry if I wasn't completely clear. I ment people are complaining that the Japanese are starting to take over the US economy with their businesses and also getting some high end jobs. However, you stated that its perfectly Biblical for them to do so. (Not taking one side or the other, just stating facts) So you are saying that the people have no real reason Biblically to complain about the Japanese "taking over" the economy because of the businesses and such. Make sense now?

In Christ,
Peter G.

Right, thank you for the context.

Yes, I am saying that there is really no problem with Japanese people having businesses in our nation. The charge of 'taking over the economy' is founded on emotion and not factual evidence or threat, besides, it is fuzzily defined. Smile

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May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:07 am

Okay, that is what I thought. Very Happy And yes, I agree, it is Biblically sound. And the American people can't complain because they don't try and change it by getting a job and changing it.

In Christ,
Peter G.
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Sir Emeth Mimetes
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:24 am

Makes sense.

Alright, two more on the list. Holding office and voting.

These, I think, should be limited to citizens, but there is more to it. Both of these have not been discussed yet in the threads, but I think we can all agree at least that newborns cannot do either. However, if we do not permit newborns to be citizens then we are actually not talking about what people generally term citizens, and are creating a new division. Women are also probably going to be excluded from these privileges (but that remains to be decided). Thus, we need a different division for these privileges, not citizenship.

Make sense?

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I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:21 pm

So your basically saying that voting and holding office is for citizens only? But the rules for who can hold office and vote are going to be discussed later?

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Peter G.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining a Citizen   Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:10 am

Peter G. wrote:
So your basically saying that voting and holding office is for citizens only? But the rules for who can hold office and vote are going to be discussed later?

In Christ,
Peter G.

Not exactly. What I am saying is that we cannot use citizenship alone to dictate those privileges (be they privileges or not). Citizenship in any form is much too broad.

_________________
I am Sir Emeth Mimetes (knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order), and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.
May I never forsake abiding in Him, and may His ways never cease to thrive within my heart, for He only is my strength and hope.
note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.
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